Public Safety Committee on Feb. 15th, 2011

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

There are two factors. First, we know that sometimes they don't get sent in. Sometimes you will have some story in the media saying a certain person was sentenced and had no previous convictions, yet everybody in that community knows that the person has a record. Then we go back and check our records and we find the police never submitted it. That's one way we know it happens. The other thing is that sometimes the police service doesn't send it in a timely manner. We have cases where we might get fingerprints submitted that were taken 10, 20, 30 years ago. So everybody is facing similar pressures and similar challenges.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Henschel.

We'll now move back. The Liberals have given up their slot to Mr. Davies.

Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the Liberals for letting me have their spot.

I want to focus on three quick areas. One is time. I appreciate that the minister is announcing today, I think, some changes, and there is great optimism about moving forward. But in the notes prepared for us by our analysts, it says:

The RCMP website states that the real-time identification (RTID) project, a five-year initiative that started in April 2004, is part of a major government project to increase the efficiency of the national fingerprint and criminal record repository in Canada. This system will replace paper processes and existing systems with reengineered workflows and automation.

What that tells me is that it's 2011, seven years later, and we're still talking today about the RTID system. In seven years, we do not have it implemented in a fashion in this country so that Canadians today can actually get a prompt and effective criminal record check.

I just want to ask you about the time. I'm going to try to narrow you down. If it has been seven years since this system started, what confidence do Canadians have that we'll have this system in place in a reasonable amount of time?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

I'll refer a little bit to earlier comments I made. As in any major project, I think it was very difficult for those folks who started this to predict exactly what complexities they would run into. There's no doubt that as this project has moved along, we have learned things. And other issues have come in, including things such as changes in legislation, which have all added to the complexity of it.

On top of that, although the original start of the idea was in 2004, the actual project development didn't start until 2006 because of delays in procurement, security clearances, and all those kinds of things. So there are a variety of factors that have slowed down the development. I can't say that it's just one particular thing. It has been a variety of things.

We have delivered on components of RTID. There have been very strong successes, but we haven't reached full automation. That's something we continue to work towards. We want to get there, obviously, as quickly as possible. It's certainly in our interest. And it's in the interest of CCRTIS to get his done as quickly as possible, because all the manual processes you see out in the real world are actually amplified when they come within....

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes. it's in all of our interests. I realize that you're doing your part, but you're subject to what everybody else can do. I might boldly state that everybody is well-intentioned here, but I don't know that we're in a position to get this done as quickly as maybe the minister might be suggesting today.

I want to talk about costs. I'd like to know what the costs are going to be to get this system fully operational across the country. Is it $15,000 per police force?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

Are you talking about doing the live scan, this part of it, for the civil screening?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes. I understand that to get this working, we have to get all the parts working together. So the individual police forces have to have the technology to do this. What are we looking at cost-wise?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

You know, usually it's between probably $12,000 and $16,000 for one LiveScan machine for civil screening. Right? That's what we're talking about here.

Depending on the police service, maybe one is enough. I'm not sure. Toronto, for example, may want to have more than one. That's the cost for the hardware. There could be certain costs associated with making sure that their system, especially if they have servers and those kinds of things, operates with ours. There could be some costs associated with that. But that's really dependent on the system they have.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

So we're talking a minimum of $15,000 per police force.

How many police forces are there in the country, so that I can get a handle on how many of these machines we might have to purchase?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

That's hard to say, because there are police services and there are also RCMP detachments, OPP detachments.... I don't off the top of my head have that.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

We're talking about hundreds and hundreds.

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

Yes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Are we talking about thousands?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

I don't think so.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

So it is hundreds and hundreds, maybe.

We're talking about a significant amount of money. Do we know where that money is coming from?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

That would be the responsibility of individual police services.

Now, I will add that when you think about the time savings from using this automated thing, they're actually saving time. There are certainly efficiencies compared to what they're spending right now doing things manually. Certainly, from discussions we've had with some of the police services that have full automation, such as the Halton Regional Police, they're very excited about it and about the time savings they have and how that has really created efficiencies for them.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I think Canadians across the country would want us to tell you that they want a very quick system that is secure--businesses, volunteer groups, and individual Canadians. I think it's a high priority for them. We need a system that can deliver an accurate result within weeks. If that's what you're working towards, I think Canadians will be well served by you continuing in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Davies.

We'll now proceed to Madam Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to go back to the subject we discussed earlier. We didn't entirely reach an understanding.

You systematically receive the 3800 form, which enables you to obtain a DNA sample based on a court order. Let's take the example of Quebec. The SQ sends it to you, along with the 3801 form, which provides you with the fingerprints. According to my information, you don't take the 3801 form into account; you only to take the 216 form into account. Until you receive the 216 form, the person convicted by the court, whose DNA is usually required in the case of a sex offence—we can expect pedophiles to be included among the individuals convicted—will not be entered in your system. Is that correct?

[Guylaine Dansereau]

The fingerprints sent with the DNA sample are intended to identify the individual associated with the sample. That information is put on hold, but entered in the archives, until we obtain the fingerprints related to a crime. We're talking about a person who has no criminal record. If the person already has a criminal record, the information has already been included. That information is put on hold until we obtain the fingerprints. These are two separate forms for two separate procedures. We don't reject the information. It's entered in the system and put on hold. It's linked with a criminal record.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

If you never receive the 216 form, the DNA sample that you've received together with the fingerprints associated with the same individual will not be considered.

[Guylaine Dansereau]

We conduct follow-up to obtain the information. This results in delays, depending on the police department involved.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

It bothers me a bit that the municipal and provincial police departments are always blamed. I'm willing to believe they have a large share of responsibility. However, I find it hard to understand why there is no system that alerts the RCMP to ensure that you nevertheless take action when you don't receive this 216 form.

Let's consider a situation in which you first receive it and you enter the information in the system. However, if you don't receive it a second time after charges have been laid, you erase all that 18 months later. So that's a bit troubling.

In Quebec, for example, the information concerning 10% to 40% of individuals convicted is not entered in the system. All that's quite troubling.

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

As I mentioned earlier, we don't delete those fingerprints after 18 months.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

You retain them.