Public Safety Committee on Feb. 15th, 2011

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

If Canadians are entering the United States and have difficulty at the border because they're flagged somehow, is there any mechanism they have to clear that up if they feel it's not a legitimate match?

[C/Supt Charles Walker]

It would depend on what we're talking about in terms of CPIC. If you're talking about a criminal record, that's an ancillary database that CPIC communicates with, so that would be my colleague's area. If it's something that a police agency has entered onto CPIC—for instance a warrant for arrest, a probation order, an outstanding charge awaiting disposition—those records originate with the agency that contributes that information to the system.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

You may want to add something, but I just want to ask one other question that you may want to address. If someone's arrested at some point—arrested in the seventies or the eighties—and the charges were never proceeded with, is that marked on CPIC?

[C/Supt Charles Walker]

No.

[Guylaine Dansereau]

It's also important, if they were arrested before or if they received a pardon, that they request a criminal records check, which will provide a certified product stating they don't have a criminal record. They could need this to present at the border.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

My understanding, though, is that once a conviction is entered into CPIC, even if a pardon has been issued, if that information has got into the Americans' hands, they don't.... I've had people who have been pardoned in Canada who go to the U.S. border and they can't get across because the United States still has a note that they have been convicted. Is there any way to deal with that situation?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

Well, I think that's when we can issue them a document saying that they do not have a criminal record in Canada.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay. So then it would be up to the discretion at the border whether they accept that or not.

Now, on juvenile records, are juvenile records sealed, or do juvenile records appear on CPIC?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

I'll let you take that.

[C/Supt Charles Walker]

In the context of the U.S. or...?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm sorry. No, just if someone did a search on CPIC--would a juvenile record appear?

[C/Supt Charles Walker]

It would depend on the disclosure provisions of the section of the act. There are viewing periods for various dispositions within the Youth Criminal Justice Act, and once they come into force, then the answer would be no.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay.

I also have a couple of questions about the use of commercial services. I am told that constituents in Halifax say they have to get fingerprinted by a commercial service, which then sends the fingerprints to the Halifax Regional Police, who then send it to the RCMP.

How prevalent is the practice of using private or commercial services for fingerprinting? I'd also like your comment on what the fees are, because I'm also hearing concerns from constituents that the fees are rising for criminal record checks, and that's also a concern.

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

I'll just give a sort of high-level answer to that, and then if my colleagues want to add something, I'll give them the opportunity.

Many organizations out there use private companies to assist them in the screening process. A certain bank might use a private company to do all the screening for all of their employees across the country. But there are also some police services that may use a third party or private company to do that work for them so they don't have to do all the administrative work to get the process going. That's their choice. That's a decision they make. That's a business model they use.

The fees they charge can vary. We don't set any fees. That's not something that relates to us. The fees are set by the police agencies, by the private companies, or by a combination of the two.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Does the RCMP charge any fee for their criminal records check?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

Indeed, it's $25 when fingerprints need to be submitted. That's set by federal regulations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We'll now proceed to the government side. Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming in today.

I have just a few quick questions. The first one has to do with the new automated system. If all police forces in Canada went with LiveScan, have you done a prognostication, shall we say, on the accuracy of that electronic equipment? First of all, could the system currently handle that workload? Would that amount of data coming in and going out affect accuracy? Have you done an estimation on that?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

I'll allow Madame Dansereau to give you a little bit more detail on that, but just as a preliminary response to that, for the work that comes in right now, the fingerprints that are sent in on paper have to go through the same process once they get to us.

The system can manage that already. If they were actually sending those electronically, it wouldn't make any difference to the system. It wouldn't affect the accuracy.

But Madame Dansereau is the expert, so I will let her continue.

[Guylaine Dansereau]

With regard to the accuracy, the system respects international standards that are used around the world for other systems similar to it. The accuracy is as high as possible. It has been demonstrated in multiple worldwide analyses on this. The volume would not affect the accuracy, because each and every submission is processed individually.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

My information is that currently in Ontario--I don't know if you have a list or if you have in your head--the Halton police service, the Windsor police service, the London police service, Waterloo, York, Ottawa, and Durham region, and then there are a number of RCMP throughout other provinces in Canada.... Have you had any additional police forces in Ontario?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

Not that are active right now, but we are working with some to get them hooked up.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

So if an MP were having some issues, they would be older issues, if that MP came from the Durham region, because they are currently hooked up to the new electronic system.

Thank you very much.

Also, some of the questions you were asked had to do with error rates, etc., and from what I could see you were very accurate in your response. There was some suggestion that 10% to 40% of crimes are not reported. Just for the sake of people who might be tuning in or listening or reading some of the results of this, the way I understand it, the Identification of Criminals Act says that you only take fingerprints in cases of an indictable offence or a dual procedure offence. If we're looking at total criminality in a particular jurisdiction, whether it be a province or an area of a province, if those offences were summary convictions, you would never have in the past nor would you currently be capturing that through fingerprints, because none are required to be sent.

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

That's right, and in fact we would not enter those onto the criminal record system. The only time summary conviction offences are entered onto the system is when there is a charge that also includes either an indictable or a dual procedure offence.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

If someone were charged with, let's say, three indictable offences and one summary conviction offence, the police force taking the fingerprints would add the summary conviction offence, and you would therefore then have a record of it; however, if it were solely a summary conviction offence relating to a group of offences or a person, you wouldn't take them.

As a matter of fact, would I be correct in saying that if a police force were to send you a fingerprint form and on that fingerprint form were only one or more summary conviction charges, you would not enter it into the data but would return it as is.