Evidence of meeting #9 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian McPhail  Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Kevin Brosseau  Senior Director, Operations, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

I call to order this meeting on the Royal Canadian Mounted Police public complaints commission and oversight.

Before we turn to our witnesses for today, there is one matter outstanding with the committee. Mr. Sullivan, the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, is unavailable on the 22nd, but is available on the 20th. The proposal is to change the date to the 20th from the 22nd. I want to make sure committee members are okay with that change.

Seeing no objections, we'll proceed with that change.

Thank you very much.

Before us today we have Mr. Ian McPhail, who I believe will be leading comments today.

Will any of the other witnesses be making comments as well, or just yourself, Mr. McPhail?

3:30 p.m.

Ian McPhail Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

I will be speaking. My colleagues are here in the event there are questions on some details.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

I just wanted to clarify that.

Mr. McPhail, please go ahead. You have 10 minutes for opening comments.

3:30 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

I would like to thank the committee for being given the opportunity to appear here today. I am joined by Helen Banulescu, the executive director, and Kevin Brosseau, the director of operations for the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP.

My opening statement will be brief. As this is my first appearance before this committee, I would like to speak to you about my professional career, about the work that is done by the Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and about my vision of the organization at this time when we are getting prepared to carry out a stronger mandate.

I will keep my opening remarks brief. Given that this is my first appearance before this committee, I would like to talk about my professional background, the work of the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP, and my vision for the organization as we move forward towards a strengthened mandate.

Most of you may know little about me beyond a media outlet's description of me as being a real estate lawyer. It's true that I run my own law practice, which does, amongst other things, include real estate law. l've been a practising lawyer for 30 years. While it's not normally in my nature to talk about my own accomplishments, my colleagues at the complaints commission have insisted that I push my Scottish reticence to the back burner on this occasion.

I was brought up in a family strongly committed to public service. Some family members went the route of elected office as Liberals, Tories, and CCFers. My grandfather was elected mayor of Sault Ste. Marie. His cousin was the first female member of the House of Commons, Agnes Macphail, representing the old CCF party of Tommy Douglas. My path has taken me towards service to community—more specifically, with the Toronto Chinese Community Services Association, the Cabbagetown south residents' association, and the Toronto Grace Hospital.

What is probably of greater relevance in terms of my new appointment is my experience running government agencies. I spent six years as chair or acting chair at three Ontario agencies: the Environmental Review Tribunal, the Alcohol and Gaming Commission, and TVOntario. I am very proud of the work we accomplished at each agency. I believe I brought solid leadership to each organization. For example, I made greater public participation and access to environmental review tribunals a key priority during my three-year tenure there.

I was honoured to have been approached for the post of part-time complaints commission vice-chair and acting chair. My motivation in accepting the position was based on being asked to help a key organization transition to a new mandate. I am fortunate in that I have inherited a very strong team at the commission, which is a testament to my predecessor. I have an experienced staff of investigators, lawyers, and analysts with backgrounds in law enforcement, public security, public service, and the private sector.

To state the obvious, the RCMP has had a challenging past few years. The commission, for its part, has been forthright in identifying deficiencies, be they institutional or individual. As an independent review body and informed interlocutor, we are uniquely positioned to bring a vital perspective to national policing issues. Taser use and police investigating police are two such topics. When we are accused of being too soft on the RCMP by some critics, and being too critical by the RCMP commissioner, we know we probably have it about right.

That said, despite how the media may on occasion portray the relationship between the complaints commission and the RCMP, as hard-hitting as some of our reports may have been, the RCMP has in fact accepted the vast majority of our findings and recommendations. The commission, for its part, is proud of its record of fairness and impartiality. Without both, we could not do our job effectively.

I believe it is fair to say we can all agree that public trust is the keystone to the effectiveness of any police force in the world. Commissioner Elliott has reiterated this point on many occasions, as have my predecessors.

How does the CPC help the RCMP with gaining the trust of the Canadian public, you may ask? When I spoke to a large gathering of Alberta-based RCMP members several weeks ago, it was clear to me that from the commissioner on down, the RCMP shares the perspective that strengthened oversight is essential to RCMP credibility.

In terms of my vision for the CPC in the short term, it is simple: I want to consolidate the excellent work of my predecessor by maintaining strict service standards in response times to complaints and reviews. I want to strengthen the complaints and review processes and I want to make it easier for citizens to access the system. My longer-term vision is to ensure that the CPC as an organization is prepared for the change to a new mandate.

There is another important objective that I have as acting chair, and that is to ensure that the working relationship between the CPC and the RCMP rests on a solid foundation of mutual trust and respect. There will be occasions where we will just have to agree to disagree. We have our mandate and we will fulfill it on behalf of all Canadians.

In terms of the future, as has been consistently recommended by CPC chairs over the years, by the O'Connor commission, the Brown task force, and several House and Senate committees, including this one, the creation of a new oversight regime now appears imminent. I will speak to some of the key areas that I believe have to be addressed in a new oversight mandate.

Before I do that, I would like to state that I believe the RCMP is an institution vital to the safety and well-being of Canadians across this land. Canadians want the RCMP to succeed. As acting chair, I am optimistic that a strengthened oversight mandate will indeed help address what Commissioner Elliott has referred to as the RCMP's “credibility challenge”.

As the Auditor General so eloquently put it in 2003, it is critical to “ensure that agencies exercising intrusive powers are subject to levels of external review and disclosure proportionate to the level of intrusion”. Nowhere is this more important than when talking about policing.

With regard to new legislation and the bottom-line requirements for effective review and oversight, there are five points I wish to leave you with. First is access to information.

Under the current model, the RCMP commissioner may deny information that is relevant to a complaint. The commission must be able to determine what information it requires and be able to access it as of right.

Second is self-initiated review authority. The current model is a reactive one, driven by complaints. The commission should have the authority to undertake reviews of RCMP conduct, policies, and procedures on its own initiative whenever a broader issue deserving of such scrutiny comes to light.

Third is the ability to work cooperatively with other agencies. The commission should be able to share information and reports with provincial ministers and the commission's provincial counterparts, or other similar bodies, when relevant. It should have the authority to conduct joint investigations, inquiries, reviews, or hearings where circumstances warrant.

Fourth is control over the complaint process. The commission should have stewardship over the intake of complaints and review requests. The commission should have the authority to impose reasonable time limits on complaints and reviews.

And finally, on improved powers of inquiry, the commission should be able to summon witnesses, enforce appearances, compel oral and written evidence, and examine and retain copies of information, without having to call a full-blown inquiry.

With that, Mr. Chairman, I would be pleased to respond to any questions committee members may have.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

Thank you very much, Mr. McPhail.

The first round goes to the opposition.

I'd ask permission of the committee to ask questions from the chair, if that's satisfactory to the committee.

3:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

Mr. McPhail, I'm sure you recognize, and you acknowledge in your comments, that you have big shoes to fill. Mr. Kennedy did an outstanding job in holding the RCMP and government accountable. And the office you hold is one that is critical to ensuring that function. It plays a vital role in allowing the public to know what changes need to be made and what deficiencies exist, and ultimately in upholding the integrity and public confidence in the RCMP. As problems are identified early and challenges are met, it allows the system to become stronger. So I'm sure you recognize that. And I'm sure you recognize the importance and size of the role you've undertaken.

I want to start, if I could, with the government having allocated $8 million some two years ago for the establishment of a new review mechanism. We'd been waiting a long time for that money to be activated. The government now says it's moving forward with the new review mechanism. I'm wondering if you could tell the committee how this money will be spent. Do you have any insight into when and how that $8 million will finally be activated?

3:45 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

In terms of the commission's budget, Mr. Chair, first of all, the commission has been acting on a budget of approximately $5 million, with $3 million of interim funding, for a total of $8 million. This has been adequate to date to conduct its operations, although, frankly, only with great care in spending.

In terms of the adequacy or lack of adequacy of anticipated funding, that's going to be very much a factor of the responsibilities the commission is mandated, or becomes mandated, to undertake by Parliament. And until we have a more specific sense of what that mandate might be, it's very difficult to comment on the specific amount of funding that would be required to conduct the mandate.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

As I say, we've been waiting for some two years, longer in fact if you consider the recommendations of Justice O'Connor following on the conclusions of Justice Iacobucci. We've been waiting a very long time for that.

Have you been given no indication of when we could expect that mandate?

3:45 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

All I know, Mr. Chair, is that the matter is under active consideration. We've made, both on the staff level and me, personally, some recommendations. So I know the matter is on the front burner at this time.

But in terms of a specific timeframe, I'm unable to enlighten the committee.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

Mr. Kennedy certainly expressed great concern that such a great period of time had transpired and a mandate was still not forthcoming. Are you satisfied with the fact that the matter is under consideration? Or do you feel these matters represent a certain degree of urgency and need to be acted upon, if not immediately, certainly years ago, probably?

3:45 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

I can't comment as to what might have happened or did not happen in the past. I only know that a strong consensus has developed among the RCMP, the commission, and I believe parliamentarians of all parties that this is a matter that should be dealt with soon. I have been given to understand, as I say, without any specific timeframe, that this will be coming forth soon.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

Right. But in your opinion, is there any reason to wait any further for that mandate? Should that mandate be implemented immediately?

3:45 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

Because I don't know the specifics as to where the new mandate stands, it's just not possible for me to give a particular timeframe.

I can tell you that when I was approached to take on this position, one of the reasons for my doing so was to enable the commission to transition to the new mandate. So clearly--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

I understand that you're obviously new to the role, Mr. McPhail, but I know this was a deep concern of Mr. Kennedy's. It's certainly a deep concern not only for me but for many others. I have to express a little disappointment that it's an area you're not pressing more urgently.

Another thing Mr. Kennedy expressed a lot of concern with and said needed to be changed--and this was reiterated in the conclusions of both O'Connor and Iacobucci--was the fact that there are many agencies for which we have no oversight, for example, Immigration and the Canada Border Services Agency. Many areas involved in gathering intelligence have no oversight.

The recommendation was to expand the mandate of the Public Complaints Commission to empower your office with those powers. Mr. Kennedy has been very critical of the fact that those recommendations haven't been acted upon. What is your feeling on that matter?

3:50 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

I would agree, as I said in my opening remarks, that there should be checks and balances with respect to any agency that has strong intrusive powers. Whether it is this commission, which I personally believe would be well equipped to take on such a role, or another body that does so is less relevant than having the job done.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

Let me ask the question a little more explicitly.

Is it acceptable that agencies such as the Canada Border Services Agency, Immigration, and more than 20 others have no independent oversight at this point?

3:50 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

As I said, I'm a strong believer that all of us as individuals or as institutions must have checks and balances, must have appropriate oversight, and must be accountable.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

What form would that oversight take? Would that take the form recommended by Justice O'Connor and advocated by your predecessor? What form of oversight should that take for those agencies that currently have none?

3:50 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

That's a matter for Parliament to decide. In terms of the structure, as I said, getting the job done is more important than which organization actually takes on the responsibility.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

That is my seven minutes for this round.

Mr. Desnoyers, you have seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In your opening statement, you spoke of the implementation of new legislative structures and you said that this included five points. My colleague said earlier that Justices O'Connor and Iacobucci had made recommendations that seemed to meet with unanimous consent. Even the minister for public security made similar statements. There was talk of an $8-million budget over two years for this organization.

From 2008 to 2009, the budget amounted to $8.7 million, but it was reduced to $5.2 million. Even Mr. Kennedy said at the time that this will be harmful to the civilian oversight of the activities of the RCMP.

Do you agree with these statements? Supposing that a new organization comprising certain elements—even though I think that there are missing pieces—were to be created, do you believe that the $8 million would be enough?

3:50 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

I assume, Mr. Chair, to respond to the honourable member's question, that the question is whether a further $8 million would be suitable.

Before I deal with that specific question, I would like to, if I might, correct one error that may have crept into the question, which was in the statement that funding for the commission was reduced from $8 million to $5 million.

For the past number of years, the commission has had base funding of approximately $5 million and interim funding of $3 million. That interim funding was renewed this year on the recommendation of the minister and with the approval of the Treasury Board. So funding has been consistent.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Were those amounts sufficient?

3:55 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

Yes, those amounts are sufficient to carry out the present mandate.

I believe the commission could be more effective with the same amount of funding were some of the recommendations that I've outlined put into place, such as the ability to control the complaints process to a greater degree, which would enable the commission to weed out more frivolous complaints.

And where I believe the result could cause the government considerable savings is an expansion of the commission's mandate to do more extensive reviews, so that governments of any stripe aren't faced with the alternative of having a full-blown public inquiry on one hand and just a general review on the other. At the moment it would appear to me that there is not an adequate middle ground there.

Again, would the $8 million in additional funding announced be adequate for the new mandate? I can only refer to my earlier remarks in which I stated that we don't yet know what the new mandate is. At such time as that's undertaken, we of course will review what's involved and make appropriate recommendations.