Public Safety Committee on April 15th, 2010

[Ian McPhail]

As a matter of fact, the commission has strongly advocated, and I am in full support of this, that we have national standards. The RCMP is a national police force and there needs to be consistency across the country. I'm not certain that at this point we're at that stage.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Thank you.

Mr. MacKenzie for seven minutes, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, and I'd like to thank the panel for being here today. I do recognize the new positions that everyone holds. On some days, I think there's a lot to be said for a new broom sweeping things clean. So we welcome you.

Mr. McPhail, I know you have some history with government and agencies, and so on, and that you have been appointed to other places. On being appointed to the commission, I doubt you went into it without doing some research on what the job involved, what tools you would have, and what road maps, if I can put it that way, were there for you.

I'd just like to know if you felt comfortable taking the job—and I'd hope you didn't take it if you weren't. But when we look at all of the things that we hear are wrong, there have to be some good things about doing the job—and we respect you for doing the job.

[Ian McPhail]

You're absolutely right. I did inquire as to what would be involved and what plans were in place or were going to be in place for the future.

One thing I can tell you is that when I took my previous positions with the Ontario government, in every case where I was appointed, I took those positions because there were problems that needed to be fixed or improvements to be made. I can honestly say that I acted as a change agent and was able to accomplish change in a non-confrontational and inclusive manner.

Yes, I became aware of some of the issues. I've become much more aware of the issues since I've taken the position, I can assure you, but that's what makes it interesting.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I have a great deal of respect for what your predecessor accomplished during his time, but sometimes it does take a new approach and a new view of things. I know that Mr. Kennedy was critical of a number of things, and I've heard some of the issues today. But one of the things is that when we talk about the oversight of other agencies, like CSIS...there is an organization called SIRC that oversees CSIS. People shouldn't believe that CSIS operates in some area without an oversight body, which it has.

[Ian McPhail]

I assure you the commission is not out to take over other organizations.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I understand that.

I'm just curious about the following. When you took over, can you tell us about the hand-off of backlogged complaints files, and maybe where we are with those?

[Ian McPhail]

This is an interesting point.

Just in the last few days I signed off on a decision where the initial complaint dated back to the 1990s. Now I don't believe that's the fault of the commission, but it is illustrative of the challenges involved in getting relevant information together. So I believe that's important.

Since I've been acting chair, I've issued over 40 decisions, so we're certainly moving along at a good clip in that regard.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I would just offer to you that I come from a province that has an independent special investigations unit in a similar manner, but different, and certainly decisions delayed are like decisions denied. The public is not well served, nor are the police officers. Obviously, I'm hoping you can tell us your intent is to clean those files off sooner rather than later.

[Ian McPhail]

Absolutely. I would go back to my role at the two quasi-judicial agencies, the Alcohol and Gaming Commission and the Environmental Review Tribunal, where we established quite tough performance measures and exceeded them.

I couldn't agree with you more. It is not fair to the complainant, whose concerns are being ignored. It is certainly not fair to the member, whose career is under a cloud, and it's hardly fair to the force or to the public, which either has forgotten that the complaint was made or has concluded that nothing ever came of the investigation.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I'm just wondering if you can enlighten us. My colleague from the NDP mentioned British Columbia. I believe I just read something recently about how the chiefs' association in British Columbia is supportive of independent investigative bodies. I don't know whether or not that would apply to your agency, but it seems to me that the police agencies are welcoming outside--I said “outside”, but I mean independent--review. Do you see any difference with the RCMP?

[Ian McPhail]

No. I would say the RCMP has been very welcoming. The commissioner, in my conversations with him, has gone to great lengths to express his view that the credibility of the RCMP is genuinely affected by the effectiveness of that independent review and oversight mechanism, so I can assure you that he welcomes it. As I mentioned earlier, when I was in Alberta speaking to senior RCMP officers there, were a number of questions. Without exception, those members saw the value of an organization such as ours.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Don Davies]

I'm sorry, you're out of time.

Mr. Oliphant for five minutes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. McPhail, for offering yourself for public service. I'm from the Sioux, and your ancestral home is well known to me. I used to drive by the McPhail house constantly.

[Ian McPhail]

Really.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

You're new in the job and I am too. And you're interim in the job and I hope not to be in mine, but because you're interim, I want to focus a little bit on this period of time as opposed to the commission itself.

Were you given a mandate letter for this year?

[Ian McPhail]

No.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

There is not a specific mandate they have actually asked you to accomplish in the year.

[Ian McPhail]

No. I was advised that there was going to be a change in the whole oversight regime. It was probably difficult to give a mandate letter when the specific nature of that regime was not yet known, beyond the fact that it was going to take place, and my mandate was to assist the commission in transitioning to that new regime.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

On that scale, on the spectrum of being the changer and the caretaker while the change is going on, where would you understand your job to be?

[Ian McPhail]

My understanding would be much more on the changer side.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

So what are your personal goals with respect to the change?

[Ian McPhail]

First of all, it is to maintain the very effective role that the commission has established for itself up until now. The quality of the investigatory activities of the commission is first rate. The internal management of the commission is absolutely excellent.

So how do we take on new responsibilities? As I've said before, it depends on what those new responsibilities might be, but I have gone through that process before.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Mr. Kennedy has some pretty concrete suggestions. Often, oversight bodies are actually the best places, because they see what needs to change. The RCMP has less desire to see oversight changed. They haven't been here pleading for change. Mr. Kennedy has suggested both budgetary and mandate changes. Mr. Brown has suggested a number of changes. Justice O'Connor has suggested a number of changes. Do you accept it as part of your mandate, then, to make these changes suggested by Mr. Kennedy, Mr. O'Connor, and Mr. Brown?

[Ian McPhail]

That's a difficult question to answer, as I'm sure you'll appreciate, because at the end of the day, it's the parliamentarians who will decide what changes we're going to be mandated to bring into place.