Evidence of meeting #9 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes. They have been taken into account.
Bloc
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, and I outlined very specifically how I think the mandate of the commission could be broadened to provide more effective oversight, at not substantial increased cost, without interfering with the appropriate internal discipline mechanisms of the RCMP.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
This also has to do with the investigative power of organizations such as the RCMP and CSIS in particular. This is a much broader mandate. I will not come back to the financial aspect, but I would like to know if you have enough personnel to carry out such a mandate.
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Clearly, if the mandate were broadened, additional personnel would be required. Again it goes back to the issue of what degree of expansion or broadening of the mandate might be legislated and what operational requirements there would be.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
The Security Intelligence Review Committee, or SIRC, has a very broad mandate with regard to the RCMP. Is the power to investigate the RCMP an extra mandate for your commission? Do you think that this role can be quickly assimilated within a new mandate?
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
A broadening of the mandate to include CSIS would be very much a broadening, indeed. I'm not certain that the mandate would be expanded or broadened to that extent.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland
Mr. Desnoyers, you will have another opportunity to put questions. I also think that there was some confusion about this question. We could come back to it.
Mr. Davies, you have the floor for seven minutes.
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Thank you to all the witnesses for appearing before us.
I must say that any relative of Agnes Macphail is a friend of mine.
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Thank you.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I want to focus a bit on one of the more troubling and profound aspects of this file—that is, deaths in custody. Of course, I come from British Columbia, where we've had some high-profile deaths in custody, not only in the custody of the RCMP but in other police forces as well. We have Mr. Dziekanski and Ian Bush, who passed away while in the custody of the RCMP in some form. We've had other high-profile deaths, including Mr. Frank Paul, involving the Vancouver Police Department.
First, what is your position on the general question of police investigating police in the case of a death or serious bodily injury while in custody?
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
First of all, if I can backtrack a little, the issue of police investigating police is perhaps an oversimplification. As I think you have correctly outlined, it applies to certain serious issues. Amongst those, I would include serious bodily harm, deaths while in custody, and issues of sexual assault.
In those instances, and perhaps in some other areas, I believe it is appropriate for a body outside of the RCMP to conduct the investigation. I think it's too difficult for the RCMP to maintain its credibility with the public when these issues come into play.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I take it you would agree with RCMP Commissioner Elliott's comments that the RCMP would prefer never to investigate themselves.
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, he has personally made that very clear.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I guess we're talking about gradients. The first thing I think we all agree on is that police forces should never investigate themselves when there's an allegation--and I'm talking about deaths in custody, serious bodily harm, or sexual assault. We agree with that.
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
With regard to the next step, do you think it's appropriate to move the investigation outside of that police force and have a sister or brother police force investigate? That's the question I'm getting at. I think many British Columbians are concerned that is not enough of a distance because of the general, and quite natural, bonds, camaraderie, and sometimes connections between police forces.
Do you have any comments on that? That's the perceived conflict of interest that many people feel in my province.
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I understand the issue, which is why it's important that there be detailed guidelines, almost a matrix, for the RCMP to follow depending on the level and seriousness of the incident.
If I could give you an example, and this relates to judicial matters, in Ontario, where we had a tragic death involving a former attorney general, the province went outside of Ontario to appoint a crown attorney for that case. That was for the very purpose you're pointing out, which was to avoid any perception of conflict. That was quite appropriate.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Here's an example. We had a recent assault by a Vancouver police officer on a resident named Mr. Yao Wei Wu. It was a case of mistaken identity. You may be familiar with the case.
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, I'm familiar with the case.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
What the Vancouver Police Department did was to call in the Delta police force. I can tell you that the Chinese Canadian community don't perceive that to be much of a distance in terms of satisfying them that they can get a truly independent investigation into this matter.
Would that be enough of a distance, in your view, to satisfy everyone? I don't want to make you uncomfortable by commenting on that decision, but that's the example I'm thinking of.
Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Without commenting on the specific decision, I think the public is the final judge of these things. I believe that police forces, whether it's Vancouver or the RCMP, must be sensitive to public opinion. With that sensitivity they should avoid measures that could be seen as half measures, which is really what you're talking about.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Well, that's true, because I think this is a question of justice as well. It's not just about sensitivities, I would respectfully submit, but justice. There's a concern that if the investigation that's supposed to bring forth the evidence, on the basis of which the crown may subsequently lay charges, is not done fairly or scrupulously, it will taint the entire process.
Would you agree with what I think many Canadians want, a national civilian-led and civilian-delivered investigative body that would investigate across the nation any allegations of deaths in custody and serious injury? Do you see any problem with that?