Evidence of meeting #52 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian McPhail  Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Richard Evans  Senior Director, Operations, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Catherine Ebbs  Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
David Paradiso  Executive Director and Senior Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

4:25 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

Frankly, I think what's being done now is quite important. Let me give you an example.

We've seen complaints over incidents that took place five, seven, and ten years ago, where records, not unreasonably, haven't been fully maintained. There's no reason that commission funds should be expended in investigating these long-dead complaints. What Bill C-42 does by setting a time limit, but giving the commission the authority to vary or to waive that time limit in cases where we believe it's in the public interest to do so, I think is a very good balance.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

One of the things—

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I think we pretty well have to leave it at that for today.

Thank you very much to the three of you for appearing before our committee today. I think it's been very helpful.

Thank you for your four suggestions. We certainly will look at those as we examine this bill and try to figure out some of the dynamic of how these commissions make their way through and how it will be different afterward.

Thank you for what you do, first of all, and thank you for being here today.

We're going to suspend momentarily to allow our next guests to take their places. We will reconvene here in about 30 seconds.

4:32 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We now have, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee, the chair Catherine Ebbs, and David Paradiso, executive director and senior counsel.

We welcome you to the committee. We want to express our appreciation for your willingness to appear today to help us with our study of this bill. I know you were here for the last hour.

We'll invite you to make your comments and field some questions after, if that would be all right.

Ms. Ebbs.

October 17th, 2012 / 4:32 p.m.

Catherine Ebbs Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have been chair of the RCMP External Review Committee for seven years, since 2005.

I'm pleased to have Mr. David Paradiso, our executive director and senior counsel, here with me.

I'd like to begin by reading a short presentation.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I am pleased to appear before you as the chair of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee or ERC.

The ERC has a vested interest in Bill C-42, and I am delighted at the opportunity to explain our position on the matter.

The RCMP External Review Committee, or ERC, was created in 1986 to provide RCMP management and their regular and civilian staff with an independent, arm's-length labour relations tribunal. For almost 25 years the ERC has provided the RCMP with an objective and neutral case review service, delivering to it extremely specialized expertise. Equally important, the ERC also offers the general public a unique window into the labour dispute mechanisms of the RCMP.

The RCMP is the only non-unionized police force in Canada. Therefore, the ERC's independence from the internal processes is essential to assuring that grievances and disciplinary rulings are examined in a fair and completely neutral manner.

We conduct a full, impartial review. In all matters referred to it, the ERC bases its review on the record before it. This includes all of the original documents, submissions of the parties, and the decision made. In this respect, we operate somewhat like a court of appeal, as we only conduct our review on the record of evidence. However, unlike an appeal court, our reports are not rulings, only recommendations; our word is not law. We prepare recommendations and findings that are given to the parties as well as to the Commissioner of the RCMP. The law requires that the commissioner consider our recommendations but is not bound by them. The final say in all cases resides with the RCMP commissioner.

Historically, the commissioner's acceptance rate of ERC recommendations is in the range of approximately 85%. If the commissioner decides not to follow them, the commissioner is required to explain in writing why our recommendations were not followed.

Now to the subject at hand, Bill C-42.

The proposed legislation provides the force with the authority to create and implement a restructured discipline system and grievance system. Under Bill C-42, the disciplinary process would be streamlined and senior managers would be given a wider range of options to sanction members immediately. Severe cases would still be referred to an internal conduct board. It has been proposed that the board would now have discretion to resolve some cases without a formal hearing.

As for the grievance system, the force is going to develop an entirely new system, the details of which won't be known until changes have been made and Bill C-42 has been passed.

We are glad to be able to contribute to renewed and streamlined RCMP processes. Regardless of the changes the government deems necessary, the ERC's approach will not change. The ERC endeavours to provide RCMP staff and leadership with every protection under the law and to ensure both parties are always on equal footing in the eyes of the law.

To most of us, the RCMP is a national institution and one of the world's best known police forces. For the thousands of regular members, civilian members, and public servants, it is also their workplace. We know that the quality of the workplace has a direct impact on the quality of the services rendered. For 25 years, the ERC has added objectivity and clarity to the resolution of workplace disputes within the RCMP.

Now more than ever, an independent outside vision is crucial to assure both management and members that the internal processes are solid, and to assure Canadians that the RCMP takes its employer responsibilities seriously.

Thank you for this opportunity. I would now be happy to answer any questions.

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Ms. Ebbs.

We will move to Mr. Leef, please, for the first seven minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Ebbs, for attending today.

I have a quick question, for clarity, on the internal conduct board. You said that the ERC can only make recommendations, and they are not necessarily binding; they are just recommendations. Can the internal conduct board make definitive decisions about employees? Can they dismiss an employee, or is that entirely up to the commissioner?

4:35 p.m.

Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

Catherine Ebbs

The disciplinary process starts with a review. You are talking about the new process under Bill C-42.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Yes.

4:35 p.m.

Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

Catherine Ebbs

Under that new process there will be a conduct authority, a supervisor, who will decide what process is to be used. Either the conduct authority will apply discipline or, if it's a case where dismissal may be an option, the conduct board will. That decision can be appealed to the Commissioner of the RCMP. It's at the appeal stage that the case would come to the ERC for an independent and neutral review.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

At the point where the conduct board concludes that dismissal is the appropriate sanction, is the member, from that point on, appealing as a citizen and no longer as an employee of the RCMP?

4:35 p.m.

Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

Catherine Ebbs

There is a difference in the new system as opposed to the old.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Let's deal with the new system.

4:35 p.m.

Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

Catherine Ebbs

In the new system, under Bill C-42, there will be a provision that if the conduct board dismisses and the member appeals, there is no stay of that decision.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Do you see any challenges, moving forward in the appeal process, for the internal review committee? Does that create any challenges you can see for the members of the RCMP who face dismissal in terms of accessing your services, accessing appeal rights, and accessing fair and judicious review of their appeal?

4:40 p.m.

Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

Catherine Ebbs

It definitely is a difference in the system as opposed to the system as it exists now.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

There has been some criticism in the past, at least, about the length of time it takes to get discipline or whatever sanction is imposed through all these systems.

How do you see Bill C-42 improving the length of time it takes? Maybe you have a case file example, not necessarily naming specifics, where you see the timeframe to process a discipline that moves right up to your level being improved by Bill C-42.

4:40 p.m.

Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

Catherine Ebbs

It is true that there are delays in the system at the present time. Bill C-42 creates the opportunity for the force to renew and modernize their internal processes, and one focus in that development will be streamlining processes.

I think that's a very worthwhile exercise. It will also be important to ensure that the principles that exist now will continue in the streamlining process, which include that the process be fair, open, and consistent, and hopefully, with the new process, more timely.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

This doesn't often get talked about, so just a question about the recommendations that you're able to make. A lot of the focus obviously is on conduct of the members. It goes to an internal conduct board and then an investigation takes place. If the member doesn't agree with the decision of the conduct board, it moves up to the external review committee.

I'm sure you've seen complaints in the past that have come to your level and after a detailed consideration of the facts and an investigation, they have been shown to be unfounded and the member is cleared of any wrongdoing or misconduct. I'm sure you make recommendations about members' conduct when they're found to be responsible, but does your board make recommendations about how the RCMP deals with, or doesn't deal with, complaints that turn out to be frivolous and vexatious or mean-spirited and without merit against the member of the RCMP?

I ask that question because restoring the confidence in the RCMP means not just the public's confidence in the discipline process, but also the individual member's confidence in this process. One of the concerns you hear internally in the RCMP is if they are subjected to an internal review or a discipline process—somebody can launch a complaint against them that is without merit and is sometimes ill-spirited.

Does your board make recommendations on that front, if it's found to be a complaint of that nature that causes grief and concern for individual members?

4:40 p.m.

Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

Catherine Ebbs

When a discipline appeal is forwarded to the RCMP, we do our full and impartial review and we prepare a comprehensive report with our findings and recommendations. The report addresses every single one of the grounds raised in the appeal.

The recommendation that we give to the commissioner would be whether or not we feel the allegations to have been established and whether the sanction is appropriate.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

So it stops there, and then I presume it would be up to the RCMP to look back on how the complaint got to that point. You're clear from making comments about the grounds of the complaint.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Leef.

If you wanted to comment on that....

4:45 p.m.

Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

Catherine Ebbs

I don't really have anything to add to what I just said.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right. Thank you.

I will now move back to the opposition, to Madame Doré Lefebvre.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Ebbs and Mr. Paradiso, thank you for joining us today. It's really great to have you here, especially since I live in Quebec and don't know a lot about the RCMP's systems. We don't have as much access to that information in my province. It's wonderful to learn more and find out how it all works. More specifically, it is fascinating to see how the ERC operates now and how it will operate after Bill C-42 is passed, since you will be affected.

In fact, I read some of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act as regards the ERC and its operation.

Before Bill C-42 was drafted, were you consulted about the proposed changes to the ERC?