Evidence of meeting #52 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Okay.
The member initiates the process where it comes to you. The member would say, “I'm not happy with this outcome; therefore, I'm asking you to look at the decision and possibly appeal it.” Is that correct? Does the member initiate that?
4:50 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
The member, or it could be the officer that initiated it if it was a decision in favour of the member.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
I see, so it could actually be the complainants within the RCMP.
What I'm quite pleased with in Bill C-42 is that it looks like there's a real modernization of the way discipline is dealt with. A move more towards education, towards dealing with things immediately, conflict resolution—some of the basic tools that most human resource managers have in just about any organization in the country.
Do you anticipate fewer appeals, more satisfaction of outcomes, and fewer cases going to an adjudication board? Do you anticipate that things would result in a more satisfactory manner for all parties?
4:50 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
That would obviously be the ideal. I think that's what you're going for any time you're trying to really modernize and renew and make things better. I don't really know if we can say with certainty that that would happen, but it's obviously the goal.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Is it something that over the last years...? You've been the chair for seven years. Is that right?
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
In the work that you've done, and dealing with members and the different clients you're dealing with, would you hear comments and feedback like, “Boy, this process is onerous” or “This is such a difficult process to go through”? Did you hear feedback from members that they wanted to see change?
4:55 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
I think there was concern that the process was onerous, not only about discipline but also grievances. I think everybody, including the ERC, welcomes the opportunity to be part of building a system to streamline and become more modernized, yet still keep the safeguards that are really necessary in those labour relations processes.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
We talk a lot about legislation changing, but really we need to see the culture change in the RCMP, and the encouragement for that change. Do you think this bill and seeing the discipline process modernized will help bring about positive change within the culture and the morale of the members and all the parties involved?
4:55 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
It's complex to change a culture, but I think one huge factor in culture is the labour relations processes, that the members and management have labour relations processes they trust and that lead to equitable results. That has been, I think, one key reason why we have a process of external review. Anything that can be done to improve the processes, at all levels, is going to help improve the environment.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Just so we're clear, Bill C-42 will not affect the work you do and your ability to continue to have external review processes of decisions.
4:55 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
The external review process continues with Bill C-42.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
It continues as is. Thank you.
Part of this is modernizing the discipline process, but the other part is something we are all quite interested in, which is the investigation of serious incidents. I'm sure you've familiarized yourself with the bill. If a serious incident happened, the first and best option would be that an investigative civilian body within a province or jurisdiction would investigate. The next option, if there weren't a civilian investigative body, would be another one appointed within that jurisdiction. The third option would be that the RCMP themselves look at it with a number of safeguards to make sure that it was done in an accountable manner.
Can you also talk about the serious incidents issue, and do you ever deal with those, or would that be more of a criminal matter?
4:55 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
To be honest, that is outside of our area of expertise. We are very specialized in the labour relations area, and I would not be comfortable commenting on that.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
As soon as anything crosses over to any kind of criminal or serious incident aspect, you are basically out of the equation at that point.
4:55 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Our focus is on discipline and grievances with labour relations.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Do you know offhand how many grievances are appealed to you every year? How many do you deal with?
4:55 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Generally speaking, we receive about 30 cases on average per year.
4:55 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
It's somewhere in that area.
October 17th, 2012 / 4:55 p.m.
David Paradiso Executive Director and Senior Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
It's a little bit more.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Do you know out of how many decisions that is? I'm just wondering what the overall rate of appeal is, or what the satisfaction level is with the decisions that are made.
4:55 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Do you mean what percentage would be appealed in terms of all of the grievances at the first instance?
4:55 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
We don't really have the information about how many are begun in the first place.