Evidence of meeting #52 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
Are there any actionable items on it, or does somebody actually look at it and decide whether those are reasonable grounds?
You mentioned that your commission is fair and neutral. You make recommendations on those principles of being fair and neutral and yet you have the commissioner making a decision and not accepting your application. Is there another party that has the final decision on this?
5:05 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
There is the possibility for the parties to take the case to judicial review at the court level. The next level is a court.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
It is pretty clear in the new regulations or the new law that the commissioner will have ultimate power to hire and fire, and that you will just make the recommendations. Would there be any significant downsides or upsides to making the recommendations of the ERC binding on the commissioner in cases where they involve dismissal of RCMP members?
5:05 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Whether or not the external review process should be a binding process or a recommendation process, as exists now, is, as I said before, a question that has been raised and discussed. It is a valid question to determine, to debate.
But in terms of our own operations, what we are focused on is that no matter what the government decides, whether they decide that a binding regime is more favourable than the recommendation, for us it's very important that it's the principles of external review that continue to be reinforced and to be recognized and valued.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
I'm sorry to cut you off, but I have to get to the answer here.
You've been at this for seven years, and thank you for serving in that role. In your opinion—you're obviously an expert at this—would there be any upsides to this, or any downsides? Are there benefits to having a binding recommendation, or are there some downsides to it?
Perhaps you can tell us about a couple of the upsides and a couple of the downsides to having binding recommendations from you.
5:05 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
I think part of the discussion on what kind of external review should exist is really focused on a more fundamental question—namely, what kind of a system are you going to create? How do you get the credibility in the system, and how do you inspire confidence in the system?
I think that's part of a general debate that has to be held more globally than looking at each specific step. I go back to the fact that, in terms of our experiences, it's the principles that are important.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
No, actually, you're going to come to a grinding halt right now.
5:10 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
I want to carry on with that theme a little bit. Can you give an example—I don't want details, obviously—of the type of decision the commissioner might not have accepted from you in that 15%?
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Certainly.
In a number of our reviews—because they're at the appeal level, I can talk about both discipline and grievances—the parties have raised a number of different grounds. Some of them could be related to interpretation of policies and some could be related to interpretations of different acts or labour relations principles. So it could well happen, and has happened, that we have come to a decision on an interpretation of a specific policy or a law and the commissioner has disagreed with our interpretation.
That's one example.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Do you think it's important for somebody like the commissioner of the RCMP to be given the ability and authority to exercise leadership in these kinds of circumstances, where he ultimately carries the can for the RCMP...?
From the tone of my question, I'm suggesting that it is appropriate for him to be able to exercise leadership in those cases. Would you agree with that?
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
Well, that's the process we operate under, and we respect that process.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Okay.
You deal with staff relations and so on. Do you have any formal dealings, or informal dealings, with the whole staff relations organization in the RCMP?
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
It's very important to us that we be, and that we be seen to be, an independent body and a neutral body. In that context, we want to establish proper lines of communication with both management of the RCMP and the membership. And in that context, we do try to keep regular contact, or we have meetings, with the staff relations representative as well as management.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Okay.
The topic of service standards came up in the last hour, and it was suggested that there were no service standards for the RCMP in the area of complaint process. But I've looked again at their 16 service standards, and there are actually four in there that do relate to the complaint process.
Are you familiar with those service standards?
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
No, I'm sorry, I'm not.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
I think it's an important point. It was suggested that because there are no service standards—I may be reading more into the response than was there—they are somehow not doing what they should do. But just for the record, four of the 16 do specifically deal with that, so you don't need to respond to that.
You handle 30 cases. Do you have 30 cases ongoing at any one time or 30 cases in a year? Obviously it varies, but typically, how long does each one take to resolve?
5:10 p.m.
Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
It does vary because of the nature of discipline on the one hand and grievances on the other. Generally speaking, we complete 20 to 25 cases in a year.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Executive Director and Senior Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
How many people do you have on staff at the ERC?