Evidence of meeting #52 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian McPhail  Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Richard Evans  Senior Director, Operations, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Catherine Ebbs  Chair, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee
David Paradiso  Executive Director and Senior Counsel, Royal Canadian Mounted Police External Review Committee

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good afternoon, everyone.

We are beginning a few moments late today. We just had a vote after question period in the House of Commons, and bus connections being what they are, some of our members may not be here yet. We do have a quorum, so we will begin.

This is meeting number 52 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, on Wednesday October 17, 2012.

I would like to begin our meeting today by paying tribute and extending best wishes to Lori Bowcock, the Canadian border guard who was shot at the Peace Arch border crossing in Surrey, British Columbia, on Tuesday.

This is the first time in Canadian history that one of our border guards has been shot in the line of duty, and our committee is aware of the dangers and the risks that our Canada Border Services guards face every day. We acknowledge their bravery and commend them for protecting our country. Certainly our best wishes and our prayers are with Ms. Bowcock.

Today we are continuing our consideration of Bill C-42 an act to amend the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act.

In our first hour we will hear from the Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Mr. Ian McPhail is the commission's interim chair.

Our committee thanks you for attending today.

Also appearing with him is Mr. Richard Evans, senior director of operations; and Ms. Lesley McCoy, legal counsel, executive director's office.

We thank you for your presence here today. We look forward to your comments, and we invite them at this time.

October 17th, 2012 / 3:35 p.m.

Ian McPhail Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to thank you and the members of the committee for this opportunity to provide the observations of the CPC with respect to Bill C-42.

Both Mr. Evans and Ms. McCoy have worked very closely with me in examining Bill C-42 and its effect on the commission. I will keep my comments brief.

The work of the Marin and McDonald commissions of inquiry in the 1970s and 1980s formed the basis of the current model of civilian review of the RCMP, established in 1988. Since that time, a succession of parliamentary reports, blue ribbon task forces, and public inquiries have sought to improve on the original model, calling for stronger and more effective civilian review of the RCMP.

The RCMP is a large organization with a diverse and complex mandate and jurisdiction.

The integrated nature of its operations with other law enforcement agencies adds to this complexity, and its presence in virtually every corner of this country and abroad is unique in law enforcement circles. All of this serves to increase the visibility of the organization and its members' contacts with the public, thereby providing ever-widening opportunities for public criticism.

That is the backdrop against which Commissioner Paulson identified the serious challenges facing the RCMP.

He has suggested that the organization is on the brink of losing the public trust it needs to do its job effectively.

Today it is a widely accepted view that a strong, credible, and independent civilian review mechanism is essential to maintaining that public trust and cementing the resulting public confidence in any policing organization. It is for that reason that the RCMP and the public need a robust review regime that has the necessary authorities and resources to independently investigate and assess the facts and render credible findings when concerns are expressed by the public regarding the manner in which the RCMP is fulfilling its responsibilities.

The review regime must be able to offer constructive, remedial recommendations that address concerns both about the conduct of RCMP members in the execution of their duties and about policy, procedural, and training gaps that risk contributing to systemic problems.

I believe that Bill C-42 satisfies these requirements to a great extent.

It sets out new authorities, which will assist the new Civilian Review and Complaints Commission, or CRCC, in providing an enhanced level of remedial review. The way in which these authorities are addressed in the legislation may at first appear complex. In my view, this complexity is for the most part a necessary reflection of the current legal landscape and is in many cases consistent with procedures adopted by both the commission and by the RCMP to compensate for gaps or ambiguities in the existing legislation.

The new authorities provided for in Bill C-42 arise in five key areas. First, the bill clearly sets out the CRCC's right to access to information held by the RCMP and to determine what information is relevant to an investigation or review. Although in recent times, the RCMP has demonstrated increased cooperation with the commission in this regard, this has not always been the case. The clear definition in Bill C-42 of the CRCC's right to access RCMP information will remove ambiguity and a potential source of conflict between the two bodies. In cases where conflict nonetheless arises, the legislation provides a dispute resolution mechanism, which offers an alternative to a lengthy and expensive court process.

Second, the bill gives the CRCC the authority to self-initiate reviews into specified activities of the RCMP. This will allow the new commission to identify problems and suggest improvements to policies and procedures in advance of public complaints or emergency or crisis situations that may affect public confidence in the RCMP.

Third, the CRCC will have the ability to summon witnesses, compel oral statements, and examine records, all without having to take the extraordinary step of calling a public hearing.

Fourth, Bill C-42 enables the CRCC to work cooperatively with the provinces that contract for RCMP policing services. The new commission will be able to share information and reports with provincial ministries and provincial counterparts whenever appropriate. It will also have the authority to conduct joint investigations, reviews, or hearings with other law enforcement review bodies. I believe Bill C-42 responds in large measure to these requirements.

Finally, the bill provides the new commission with more control over the complaint process. For example, under the existing legislation there is no time limit on making a complaint. Bill C-42 imposes a one-year time limit for making a complaint while providing for the ability to extend time limits for complaints and reviews where reasonable.

While these enhancements go a long way in addressing many of the weaknesses in the current review regime, I do have some observations that the committee may wish to consider.

The first of these, which admittedly I raise out of self-interest, is the issue of immunity of the commission chair. Bill C-42 offers some immunity to CRCC members in the exercise of their powers and duties, yet no equivalent immunity is provided to the CRCC chairperson. I believe this could be easily addressed. I know I would be grateful, as would my successors, I'm sure, not to have the spectre of jail time hanging over my head every day I come to the office.

The second issue I would like to raise relates to the provisions in the bill that give the RCMP commissioner or his delegate the ability to refuse to investigate a complaint that the CRCC chair has determined is in the public interest to investigate. Under the existing RCMP Act, the RCMP does not have that ability: a chair-initiated complaint must be investigated. The justification for this limitation is plainly evident. The credibility of any civilian review process will be lost if the agency subject to review is in a position to control when investigation may or may not occur. I believe this could be easily resolved with a simple amendment.

My third issue of concern is that while the bill requires the CRCC to protect privileged information it receives from the RCMP, it does not require the RCMP to identify information as privileged. The privileged nature of the information may not be obvious on its face, especially given that the definition of privilege in the bill is non-exhaustive. The commission recognizes the importance of safeguarding privileged information. However, to ensure these safeguards are properly applied, the RCMP should be required to notify the commission when it is providing it with privileged information.

Finally, it is a generally accepted principle that for civilian review to be effective, it must be timely. The commission has adopted this principle and imposed on itself strict time limits for all phases of the complaint process. It publicly reports annually on its performance in respect of those time limits.

I am pleased to see that this concept of service standards for the CRCC is incorporated in Bill C-42. I believe service standards would be a good idea for the RCMP as well.

These observations aside, I am of the view that Bill C-42 codifies in many ways a number of practices adopted by the RCMP and the commission in recent years. I would argue that these practices are evidence of the RCMP's growing support for external review and its recognition that we're working toward the same objective—a more accountable and more trusted RCMP.

This recognition has certainly contributed to the effectiveness of the commission's work during my time as interim chair of the commission. I assure you that there has been no shortage of work.

In addition to responding to the ever-increasing volume of contacts with the public about RCMP member conduct, the commission has responded to a number of high-profile incidents such as the in-custody deaths of Raymond Silverfox, John Simon, and Clay Willey, and the actions of the RCMP in the context of the G-8 and G-20 summits.

The commission also completed a full review of RCMP policing services in the Yukon, and we continued our yearly analysis and reporting on the RCMP's use of conducted energy weapons.

The commission is currently conducting an investigation into the RCMP's handling of allegations of workplace harassment. In the context of that investigation, we have reviewed approximately 1,000 RCMP files and 70 individual public submissions regarding the issue.

In examining this information, we are looking at how the RCMP responds to complaints regarding harassment in the workplace and whether their policies are adequate to deal with those complaints. We anticipate completing our report near the end of the calendar year.

I am very proud of all of this work. I look forward to the CRCC continuing such work and being able to do even more with enhanced authorities and regularized funding. As you know, for the past several years the CPC has relied on year-to-year interim funding to carry out its mandate. This has made it particularly challenging to maintain the commission's strategic focus while ensuring a full response to significant emerging issues. I am of the view, however, that the enhanced authorities set out in Bill C-42, along with a modest increase and stabilization of funding, will set the new CRCC on firmer ground and allow it to accomplish even more for the RCMP and for Canadians.

I would be happy to respond to any questions you may have.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. McPhail.

We'll move quickly to the first round of questioning.

We'll go to Ms. Bergen, please, for seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. McPhail, for being here. Thank you as well to you and your staff for the good work you do in serving Canadians and serving the RCMP and public safety.

I have a very direct question that I'd like to ask you. Can you tell me if Bill C-42 will give the new complaints commission the ability to deal with harassment?

3:45 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

Absolutely it will. I'll just outline what the commission is currently doing and how C-42 would make a difference. The commission is currently conducting a public interest investigation into allegations of workplace harassment in the RCMP. We have all seen many articles in the media about this.

The investigation is examining the thoroughness and impartiality of the RCMP's investigation of harassment allegations, whether policies were adhered to, and whether they are adequate to deal with allegations of workplace harassment.

Approximately 70 individual submissions were received by the commission following the announcement of the investigation and a public call for submissions. The CPC also received over 1,000 files from the RCMP related to harassment issues between February 2005 and November 2007. The commission has had three experienced investigators reviewing all of these files.

We anticipate completing our report near the end of the calendar year.

Let me just put it on the record that the RCMP has cooperated absolutely fully with the commission in providing whatever information the commission has requested.

The new provisions in Bill C-42 would ensure that the commission is able to conduct its investigation even if this level of cooperation is not present.

I hope that is helpful.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Yes. Thank you.

Basically what you are saying is that the main difference will be that you will have access to information that you possibly don't currently have, even though, as you said, the RCMP is being cooperative. It would give you the ability, hypothetically, if that cooperation weren't there, to access the information required.

3:50 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

Exactly. The commission would have that access as a right.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Great, thank you.

I have another question. The media recently reported that two of your employees were laid off as part of our government reduction exercise. Can you please tell us about those layoffs?

3:50 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

Very simply, I've heard those media reports as well. The fact is that the opposite is true. There have been no layoffs as a result of the government deficit reduction strategy. The employee numbers at the CPC are approximately 60.

We conduct ongoing reviews in terms of trying to make our operations as efficient as possible. In the course of that review, we concluded that there was one position in corporate services that was really redundant. We're in discussions with the particular individual, and I imagine that it will be properly resolved.

What I would like to tell you too is that we're also very actively engaged in working to ensure that the commission has the necessary increased depth among its staff, particularly in the areas of operations and investigations, to comply with its requirements under C-42.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

How much time do I have, Chair?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have two minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you.

You mentioned the information part of being able to summons information and get information under the new piece of legislation. I'm wondering about witnesses. Could you again explain what you don't have access to right now in terms of information? That would include witnesses and documentation. What pieces of information are you not able to access now that you will be able to access under the new bill, and how will that assist you?

3:50 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

The present RCMP Act gives the commission the power to compel a witness or to require the production of a document in the course of a public inquiry. But that's not something we do or would wish to do frequently. It's cumbersome and expensive. Bill C-42 will give the commission the power to compel witnesses, to require the production of documents or information as part of a regular investigation as of right.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you very much.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Ms. Bergen.

We'll now move to the opposition side and to Mr. Scott. Welcome here.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. McPhail, for your presentation. I do apologize for missing the better part of it. I had to present a bill. I've been well briefed on what you've said, though, and I have a feeling I'll be covering some new ground. I'm going to try to get through three to four questions, if you could help me in that.

Proposed subsection 45.74(2) in Bill C-42 speaks of the new commission having to suspend an investigation upon the request of the RCMP commissioner. Now I'm not going to assume you're necessarily an expert on all the legalities of this future bill, but—

3:55 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

That's why Ms. McCoy is here.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Exactly. You may have an opinion on this because it's pretty clear it has to be suspended upon request if the Commissioner of the RCMP is of the opinion that the commission's investigation interferes with an ongoing criminal investigation.

From your own experience, do you see this as a significant restriction on the independence of the new commission, or do you see this as an entirely appropriate provision, assuming for the moment that nothing is said about any recourse the commission could have once the commissioner sends in that request? I'm wondering if you think there should be some reviewability of the commissioner's request to stop the investigation.

3:55 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

Very simply, I see the RCMP as the subject matter expert. The RCMP, more than anybody else, is going to be aware of whether an investigation or a review has the potential to interfere with an ongoing criminal investigation.

Frankly, I think such a restriction is perfectly justified, because I think it's important to remember that the review of any civilian review or complaints body can take place after the investigation has been completed. So it's not necessary to step in at an early stage and risk causing difficulties for an investigation.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Thank you.

Your point seems to be, and I think it's a good point, that it doesn't oust the jurisdiction; it just delays the jurisdiction.

3:55 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

Exactly.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

For that reason, would you see any need for any kind of a challenging mechanism or a reviewability mechanism? The reason I ask is that we may have misunderstood the testimony, but public safety officials on Monday suggested that if the chair of the commission disagrees with the commissioner's request, then he or the commission can go to court to seek to overturn that.

I'm wondering if you think that's feasible, if that's correct, if your legal advisers can help me on that. If it's correct, do you think that's a desirable mechanism, or would you prefer to see it end with the text as is, which is that the commissioner asks, it stops, and that's the end of it?

3:55 p.m.

Interim Chair, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Ian McPhail

It's quite true that there is a remedy, which is judicial review. That would be a pretty extraordinary remedy.

Richard, I can think of only one instance where there has been a long ongoing investigation where that was an issue.

3:55 p.m.

Richard Evans Senior Director, Operations, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Yes, we have had some long-standing investigations that have taken 10 years or more. They've actively investigated criminality, but as Mr. McPhail says, when you look at the jurisdiction between investigating criminal offences and doing a review of public complaints, it's quite easy for the commission to do its work at the conclusion.

The other element that's important is the commissioner is required to give reasons, so there's a relatively serious threshold. First, it can't just be that we think it might interfere. It has to be that it would compromise or seriously hinder our investigation, and he has to give public reasons.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

A very good point.