Evidence of meeting #72 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Did you and your team do a good job on this report, and does it accurately reflect what you and your team learned?
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Yes, I'm very proud, as a matter of fact, of the job we did.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
In your report does it not say that you did not find systemic harassment in the RCMP?
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Yes, it does.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you.
If somebody were to infer that there is, that would be their opinion based on whatever investigation they did, if anything. Would that be correct?
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Yes, that is correct.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you, sir. That's very good, because we recently heard here that there are 20 people who don't report something for every one who does. Is that an accurate reflection of what you heard in your investigation or that it indicates might be happening, or does any other external agency or set of facts lead you to believe that's an accurate number?
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
We found no facts to suggest that was the case.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much.
In any of your investigations, did you ever hear from a senior or junior member of the management team of the RCMP who indicated that cost constraints affected their ability to investigate harassment complaints?
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Again, costs were not an issue, costs were not raised. If I can address that further, because Mr. Scarpaleggia raised this question, we were quite conscious in making our recommendations as to the costs involved. It's our opinion that our recommendations would not result in significantly increased costs to the RCMP. It's also our belief that by simplifying the multiple number of complaints processes, and by not losing the services of members who have left the RCMP or who have gone on sick leave—and there are a number, because that is an issue as well—those are significant costs to the RCMP that can be avoided.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you.
Please let me know if this an accurate statement. Your report notes that “allegations of harassment within the RCMP workplace are not a new phenomenon.” Indeed, in an internal survey conducted during the 1990s, a number of RCMP members reported they had been the victim of sexual harassment in the workplace.
If that's an accurate statement about sexual harassment in the workplace since the 1990s—and we're talking about a quarter century here, some 25 years—would you say that, based on your analysis and investigation, the incidence of sexual harassment is increasing? We have to use percentages because there may be more, and the RCMP is the largest employed police force in the world. Noting as well, simply by way of statement, that in society today people are more apt to report sexual harassment today than 10 or 15 years ago, is sexual harassment on the increase? Would you say that's correct? Please feel free to give reasons.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Sure.
Very simply, what we stated is that this is not a new issue. It's very difficult to draw conclusions from the raw numbers, saying either that there's a systemic problem or not. That's why we pointed out that this is the first time that anybody has done a complete review of harassment files.
This is part of a process. It's our belief that if the recommendations we've made are implemented and subsequently monitored, we will be able to get concrete measurements of improvement, as the case may be.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Mr. Norlock.
We'll now move back to the opposition, to Mr. Garrison, for five minutes.
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. McPhail and your staff, for appearing today.
I want to start by saying that on this side we in no way question the integrity of the commission or its best efforts in compiling this report. Given the tenor of some of the questions you were asked a moment ago, I have to use a bit of an analogy: if you're walking along, looking down at the sidewalk and looking for potholes, you'll find no evidence of a post in front of you but you will still run into that post. I think that's what we have in this report.
You've done a very good job within what you call your terms of reference, in looking at a certain aspect of this problem, which is how the RCMP deals with the complaints it receives. You have not been able to look at the broader question, which has resulted in somewhere between 200 and 300 women filing cases in court about sexual harassment within the RCMP.
Given that you are an interim chair and a part of an organization that lost two personnel last year as a result of a reduction in its budget, were there resource constraints that caused you to limit your terms of reference?
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
The answer is no because the commission itself established the terms of reference.
Secondly, it's not accurate to state that the commission has had a reduction in its budget. That's simply not the case. It's also, with respect, not accurate to say that the commission has been reducing its complement of employees. I do recall that the issue arose last fall when I appeared before this very committee and explained that we had decided that there was a position in the commission that was no longer necessary and that the individual concerned had actually been very pleased to be offered a retirement package.
What I can tell you is that the commission has been ramping up and hiring additional personnel in preparation for the move to the new review and complaints commission.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
Thank you for that clarification.
I want to turn to some of your recommendations. You've made reference to Bill C-42 and, in particular, your fourth recommendation reads “That an external mechanism for review of harassment decisions be implemented”. It's my understanding that there is no such provision for that mechanism in Bill C-42, that it simply creates a possibility that the commissioner might choose to implement that. Is that your understanding?
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
It's my understanding that Bill C-42 provides the commissioner with the ability to move ahead in some of these areas. The goal of our report is to provide a road map for the commissioner and the RCMP as to how they can deal with this issue. At that point, it's then up to the commissioner and the RCMP to use the powers granted to them by Bill C-42 and the road map provided by this commission to implement necessary reforms.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
I think you made some very useful recommendations on training. On this side, we've tried to have an amendment made to Bill C-42 to put mandatory training into the responsibilities of the commissioner. I'm not asking you to take a position on that as an independent commissioner, but again, I guess it's the same situation. You're saying that even though Bill C-42 doesn't require the commissioner to create mandatory training programs, you would advise him to do so.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
We would advise the commissioner to do so, exactly.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC
I guess this is something you may not be able to comment on, but I know that we're looking at reductions in the resources given to the RCMP. Again, Mr. Scarpaleggia raised the question of the costs. It's somewhat difficult sometimes to see how the RCMP will devote resources to things like this in the face of its other duties that, on a day-to-day basis, it has to carry out with fewer resources.
Did you find any evidence of there being resources that could be diverted or shifted into these things?
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
I actually believe that our recommendations would be roughly revenue neutral, on the basis of there being a significant cost to carrying out an harassment investigation and review extending over four years. That's unacceptable. There's also a significant cost from individual members of the RCMP who have to take sick leave or might choose to leave the service. There's a significant cost to the RCMP from that, and I think it's necessary to balance those costs out.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Mr. McPhail.
We'll now move to Mr. Payne, please. You have five minutes.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for coming.
Through the chair to you, first of all, I guess that looking at some of the numbers can certainly get some people very upset about this. My background is in human resources. I worked for an international petrochemical company. This goes back quite a number of years, but as part of a similar process, we started sensitivity training for harassment, sexual harassment, and so on.
I'm just wondering if you know how far back any particular training may have started in the RCMP, or if it is just something fairly new.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Let me give you an example. I had the opportunity to spend a week at Depot in Regina where RCMP cadets are trained. I have to tell you that I was extremely impressed by the high quality of the training, in all aspects, given to the cadets. The training that they're given about harassment is also, I believe, excellent. The training module for managers is also, we believe, very good. The problem is that it hasn't been given to enough people. It needs to be rolled out. The RCMP, to its credit, has actually done a good job, but they need to move forward. They need to take the training programs they have created and continue them. For example, for general members of the RCMP, we advocate online refreshers from time to time. These are not expensive. We advocate that the training module, which the RCMP has already prepared and given to a number of managers, be rolled out to cover all managers, because if managers are in a position to have a certain sensitivity, if you will, to workplace conflict issues, many problems can be addressed before they become serious.