Evidence of meeting #72 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian McPhail  Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Richard Evans  Senior Director, Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Bob Paulson  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, everyone.

This is meeting number 72 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, Tuesday, February 26, 2013. Today our committee meeting is being televised, so I would encourage all members to turn off their cellphones or at least mute them.

We're having a briefing this morning on the report into issues of workplace harassment within the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Our first witness this morning is from the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP. The interim chair of the commission, Mr. Ian McPhail, is here.

We welcome you, sir.

We also welcome Richard Evans, the senior director of operations, and Lisa-Marie Inman, the director of reviews and investigations.

We thank you for appearing again before our committee. It's very much appreciated, as is the timely report that you've brought forward for us to study.

I would invite the chair to make an opening statement before we proceed into the questions and, hopefully, the answers for our committee.

Mr. McPhail, please begin.

8:45 a.m.

Ian McPhail Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We appreciate the invitation and the opportunity to be here.

Mr. Chair and honourable members, thank you for the opportunity to share with the committee the results of the commission’s investigation into workplace harassment in the RCMP. You will recall that in the fall of 2011, several female RCMP members came forward publicly with allegations of sexual harassment, which raised questions in the minds of Canadians.

Given how fundamentally important public support is to the ability of the police to carry out their duties and responsibilities, I believed it was necessary to initiate a complaint and public interest investigation into the conduct of RCMP members regarding the handling of allegations of harassment in the workplace.

The investigation examined the adherence to RCMP policies and procedures, the adequacy of those policies, the thoroughness and impartiality of harassment investigations, as well as harassment-related training. In total, the commission reviewed 718 harassment complaints filed between 2005 and 2011.

Overwhelmingly, the problem we found was abuse of authority, in other words bullying. The investigation also revealed that most of the alleged harassment occurred between regular RCMP members. Over 60% of complainants and 70% of respondents were uniformed police officers.

The gender breakdown of complainants was virtually half male and half female, while respondents were predominantly male. The commission's review also found that most of the harassment complaints were dealt with in accordance with the RCMP’s harassment policy. However, that policy was capable of being interpreted in a number of ways, which resulted in it being inconsistently applied.

That said, the investigation also revealed that workplace conflict and harassment in the RCMP does exist. As such, the report urged the RCMP to take a number of concrete and measurable steps to improve its handling of workplace conflict and harassment allegations, including revising the harassment policy to be more inclusive; instituting a system of centralized monitoring and coordination of harassment complaints outside of the divisional chains of command; establishing an external mechanism for review of harassment decisions separate from, but not exclusive of, the RCMP’s labour relations process; and establishing timelines for the resolution of complaints facilitated by the new authorities granted by Bill C-42.

The commission also recommended that the RCMP develop a comprehensive method to evaluate respectful workplace efforts that is both measurable and quantifiable, and that the evaluation results be made public. All of this is intended to enhance the transparency of the process.

Although the empirical data presented to the commission did not support the widely held belief that the RCMP has a systemic issue with sexual harassment, there is no proof to the contrary. And only if you have what RCMP members themselves see as a fair, open, transparent, and expeditious process will people be more comfortable in stepping forward.

Harassment is a complex problem requiring a complex solution. Policy statements and written procedures are not enough to address the issue. There must be an intent on the part of the RCMP to cultivate a more respectful workplace, and that intent needs to be followed up with actions.

I am hopeful that the commission's report and recommendations will help inform the RCMP in its efforts and further build on the commissioner's recently released gender and respect action plan.

I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. McPhail, for your presentation, and also for your report. That has been circulated to each member, I believe.

We'll move into the first round of questioning, and we'll go to Mr. Leef, please, for seven minutes.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Thank you very much, Mr. McPhail, for your testimony today.

You mentioned in your report that sexual harassment is not systemic in the RCMP. I was just wondering how you generated that conclusion.

8:50 a.m.

Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Ian McPhail

Of the 718 files we reviewed, approximately 90% of them dealt with abuse of authority or bullying, 4% dealt with sexual harassment, and approximately 6% dealt with other issues.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Did you deal exclusively within the RCMP, or did you at any point make comparisons with other public service agencies in Canada? I know that not too long ago that a report came out that listed sexual harassment and harassment generally in the public service of Canada. The RCMP was somewhere at the high end of the top 10 in that list. Did you compare the RCMP to the other agencies to generate the conclusion as well, or did you do it solely on the merits of the 718 reviews?

8:50 a.m.

Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Ian McPhail

The finding as to whether or not there was a systemic problem was based on the files we reviewed. We also, though, as you mentioned, did compare the experience of the RCMP with certain other police services, and also took note of studies done in the federal public service.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Of the 718, can you maybe just touch on how diverse those were in terms of the geographic regions that the complaints came from, or maybe just give us a bit of a breakdown on how those numbers are representative of Canada as a whole?

8:50 a.m.

Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Ian McPhail

Those numbers represented every division, every part of the country. Percentages were higher or lower in different divisions, but the total numbers are not sufficiently large to enable you to make a reliable conclusion.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

Would it have been your hope to have more input? Is 718 a decent number for you to feel confident in your report's findings?

8:55 a.m.

Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Ian McPhail

A key element of the report's findings was not based on numbers so much, because we also pointed out significant areas where we don't have information. For example, a great many complaints are resolved informally without a harassment file being opened. There's no record kept of that. We recommend that the RCMP do keep records of these informal resolutions of cases because, as it could clearly be significant. The great unknown is those people who, for whatever reason, don't step forward.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

And that would not be much unlike any other place. There would probably be similar rates occurring generally, meaning a certain percentage of people just not coming forward, for whatever reasons.

8:55 a.m.

Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Ian McPhail

Exactly.

In terms of anecdotal evidence, because we received submissions from various individuals, both expert, and former and present members of the RCMP, there was a suggestion that some people might be hesitant in stepping forward for fear that either stepping forward could cause damage to their career or because the process itself was so convoluted and lengthy it was simply not something they wanted to get involved with.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

You mentioned in your report that one of the recommendations was to establish the timelines set out in Bill C-42.

Do you see the provision under Bill C-42 for dealing with those complaints as a positive step? What sort of timelines would you recommend be put in place using that legislative authority?

8:55 a.m.

Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Ian McPhail

I see that as one of the essential steps, as a matter of fact, because the files we reviewed took anywhere from two weeks to four years to resolve. That's clearly unacceptable. We didn't recommend any specific timeline, because that would be the responsibility of the RCMP itself. Nonetheless, we do advocate streamlining of the process because we make reference in the report to the various choices that could be made. The opportunity for appeals or filing of grievances at frequent steps in the process causes it to be slow, cumbersome, and expensive.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT

I have a final question.

You mentioned that you made some comparisons between the RCMP and other police forces in Canada. I am just wondering how the RCMP compares.

8:55 a.m.

Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Ian McPhail

The RCMP compared better than most. That said, as our national police force and an organization that occupies a unique place in Canada, it has to be better.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to the opposition, to Madame Lefebvre.

Ms. Doré Lefebvre, you have seven minutes.

February 26th, 2013 / 8:55 a.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McPhail, thank you for being here.

I would also like to thank Mr. Evans and Ms. Inman for joining us. It is extremely important, especially following the report we received.

Mr. McPhail, your report concluded that there was no concrete evidence of a systemic problem of harassment, but you yourself admit that the investigation was limited by the commission's mandate and powers. Your report depended on existing complaints and public submissions.

We know that sexual harassment often goes unreported and that more than 200 women filed a class action suit against the RCMP.

Do you think that your investigation was limited by your mandate and the powers available to you? Do you think the problem of sexual harassment within the RCMP deserves to be studied further?

9 a.m.

Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Ian McPhail

Thank you for your question. Let me deal with the different issues you've raised.

Quite clearly there are issues that we were not able to investigate due simply to the fact that either people had not stepped forward or files weren't kept, as we say, for cases of informal resolution. The report was not restricted by our mandate—although there's an element of truth there—but also by the terms of reference. Our goal was to do a systemic investigation with the goal of making recommendations that would help the RCMP address this issue.

With respect to some of the well-publicized lawsuits, we had discussions with some of the people involved. We reviewed the documentation on which those lawsuits were based, and it was taken into account and helped inform our recommendations.

9 a.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you.

An internal document obtained by La Presse through the Access to Information Act implies that some employees hesitate to report sexual harassment because they do not trust the current system for handling complaints. It seems to me that, in your opening remarks, you also spoke about members who said that it would be easier to report similar actions if the process were easier.

Since some employees hesitate to report sexual harassment because of the current system for handling complaints, do you share their fears? Do you think this clearly shows that there are gaps in the current system for handling complaints?

9 a.m.

Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Ian McPhail

Your questions actually go to the very heart of our recommendations, which is to begin by centralizing the record keeping.

For example, it took us some time to be able to identify the various harassment files. I can tell you that the RCMP was totally cooperative in providing us with those files, but the files were in the various divisions. We believe it is important, if for no other reason than as a management tool, that senior management of the RCMP have access to this information, which until now they have not had. So we recommended that the maintenance of the files be centralized.

We also recommend that records be kept of cases of informal resolution. We advocate streamlining the process. We advocate the appointment of a senior officer of the RCMP, outside of the divisional chain of command, to be responsible for issues of harassment. We advocate subsequent outside review of the RCMP's handling of these matters.

All in all, our recommendations go to addressing how the process should be handled, with a goal of making it much more open, fair, transparent, and expeditious. It is our belief that if this is done, people with complaints will feel more empowered to step forward.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

You think these recommendations would probably help resolve the current situation experienced by some employees within the RCMP. Have I understood correctly?

9:05 a.m.

Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission

Ian McPhail

It's impossible to say that any set of recommendations will absolutely resolve a problem. That said, there's no doubt in my mind that implementation of these recommendations would go a long way towards dealing with this issue.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. McPhail.

We'll now move back to the government.

Mr. Laurie Hawn, please.