Public Safety Committee on Feb. 26th, 2013

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

How would you simplify it in this case?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

There is no question but that the chair would not be erring. You know that, Mr. Scarpaleggia.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I see. I've just been reduced from seven minutes to five minutes, I think.

Will the system you are going to create be more like the Treasury Board system? Right now, as I understand it, there are two systems for dealing with complaints. One is the Treasury Board system, and then I believe you have to leave this system in certain cases and move to an RCMP-based system.

What is your system going to look like? Is it going to look more like the Treasury Board system? Is that the better system at the moment?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

If it's possible, it will exceed the expectations of the Treasury Board guidelines right now.

From that point of view, we'll have two categories of employee. We'll have regular members and we'll have public servants. If you're a regular member, it's going to be streamlined such that we're not going to get into that grievance-discipline-harassment process. It's going to be one system that is going to be managed and administered efficiently.

If you're a public servant, you won't know the difference. I know that there is some discussion about some public servants who feel that the RCMP reaction to some harassment complaints is a bit too criminal investigator-like, but it will be absolutely consistent with the Treasury Board and in some cases more efficient.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

So the Treasury Board system will stay in place for public servants working within the RCMP, or will it be a new system in theory but will essentially be the same one?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Okay.

And the other system, the RCMP system, will be improved.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes, and it will be brought together to stop this bifurcation of discipline and harassment.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

We have talked a lot about record keeping and gauging costs and so forth. Aside from legal bills, does the RCMP keep figures on such monetary costs of harassment as sick leave, increased use of medical plans, and so on? If not, is this something you would consider as part of a revamping of the system?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I think so. One of my key priorities going forward is revamping our information management more broadly in the organization.

But to answer your specific question, we have ways of extracting costs of sick leave and so on. The ability to link them to harassment, though, is not necessarily—

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

It's very difficult.

You said that “notionally” you will implement all 11 recommendations from the public complaints body. When you say “notionally”, do you mean that you will implement each recommendation to the degree feasible? What do you mean by notionally”?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I'll tell you specifically, Mr. Chair, what notionally means. I don't have a full understanding of their recommendation around the external management or review of harassment complaints. We do have that now: we have external review committee, the Federal Court, the Human Rights Tribunal. They're all external bodies that have varying degrees of activity in reviewing harassment in the force. I don't know what they're talking about there.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Okay. I'm done, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Madame Day.

Ms. Day, you have seven minutes. Pardon me, five minutes.

Second round.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you for being here. Thank you for taking steps to improve the situation.

My first question is about the mandatory online training.

How can you know that people have actually completed it? You're saying that 94% of employees have taken it, but did they take an test in a room, be it on a Saturday, a Sunday or a Monday, so that it is clear that they answered the questions?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Thank you.

When they take the online training, they must read something and then answer questions. If they don't answer certain questions, they have to re-read the material.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay, but how do you know that the person in front of the screen is the person who's supposed to be there?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Ah, I see. They have a password that allows them to access the system. I imagine that a person could work hard at it and arrange to have someone else take the training in their place, but that hasn't happened yet.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That would be cheating.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Recommendation No. 4 indicates that an external mechanism for review of harassment decisions be implemented. This morning, we were talking about a supervisor from another team or another location. Would it not be a good idea—if I may make a suggestion—to give this responsibility to someone representing the person who filed the complaint and the workers, or to a multiparty committee? Wouldn't that reassure the public about how complaints are handled?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, it's possible, but it's important to try to conduct the investigation as quickly as possible.

Most of the investigators, once we're in the investigative stage of an harassment case, are external to the unit that they're in. Occasionally they're not—they may be in the detachment, but they wouldn't be in the work unit. That goes back to my comments earlier, Mr. Chair, around this notion of having external investigative responses to all harassment complaints. I do like your suggestion about committees.

In the west right now, we do have some employee committees that take an active interest in how the harassment complaints and workplace issues are being managed. I think that bears more examination, but it's a tricky area for one to commit to having external investigations in every instance, because it's just not feasible.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Right.

You said that you want to recruit and raise awareness with the target audience, mainly in schools and probably at job fairs and expos. National Defence has already done this type of recruitment in recent years. You're from National Defence. I saw in your CV that you came through there.

Do you have any numbers showing the results of that kind of approach to increase the number of women in the workforce? I would also like to know what percentage of women apply to the RCMP. A lot of women now want to join the RCMP. I would like to know how many of them are accepted and how many are turned down.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Once again, thank you for the question.

I don't have the figures on the number of women.

I don't have the numbers on the success of those outreach initiatives with me, so I can't really speak to that.

We do have the numbers, and I'm not in a position—

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Excuse me, but I think you could provide those numbers to the committee.