Evidence of meeting #72 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for coming.
Is the perception of systemic sexual harassment in the RCMP just because of misunderstanding between what bullying and harassment are? Is that how this perception has gotten out there?
9:05 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
It's difficult to say why the perception is out there. We didn't address that issue. We took the approach that we were going to deal simply in facts, and our report is very much fact-based. We went where the evidence led us.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
I realize this will call for a kind of value judgment, but there was a lack of info on many of the complaints because they were informal, not recorded, and so on.
Would it be logical to assume that if any of those were serious cases, they would have taken on more of a formal than simply an informal process?
9:05 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Generally, that would probably not be an unfair conclusion.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
So is it somewhat logical to suggest that there weren't any time bombs in that group of informal complaints?
I know you can't give a positive yes or no, but...
9:05 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
It's a difficult question to answer because, of course, it's hypothetical.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Yes.
You talked about use of former members. These would be retired members, presumably, with potentially decades of experience.
Would you like to see more of that? Do you find these people more or less subjective than, say, current serving members?
9:05 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
The interesting thing there was that in terms of the interviews we conducted there wasn't very much difference between former members and current members. Their perceptions were pretty similar.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Would this suggest to you that current members are not very afraid of retaliation? We have talked about the impact on careers. Former members might feel a bit freer to criticize, and so on. But if they had more or less the same objectivity, would that—?
9:05 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
I think you have to give people confidence that there would be no retaliation. That matter is addressed in one of our recommendations.
That being said, it would appear that the bigger reason for people not stepping forward was the length and the convoluted nature of the process.
9:05 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Recommendation 4 reads: “That an external mechanism for review of harassment decisions be implemented.”
Can you describe what that external mechanism might be?
9:05 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
We attempted not to be unduly prescriptive; however, in terms of reviewing how harassment complaints were handled, I believe that an appropriate body would be the new review and complaints commission contemplated by Bill C-42.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
In recommendation 6 you suggested “That harassment investigators receive mandatory specialized training in respect of conducting investigations into workplace conflict and/or harassment prior to being tasked with such investigations.”
Who would conduct that kind of training?
Before you answer that, other large organizations may have gone through similar challenges. Did you look at reaching out to any of those organizations for some expertise in how to deal with situations like this?
9:10 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
This is an operational matter for the RCMP, and the RCMP would have to decide whether it has the resources or would need the assistance of outside organizations.
At first glance you might ask why an organization containing many thousands of trained investigators would need outside assistance. It is because of the different nature of a harassment investigation. Generally, police officers are trained to gather evidence to support a criminal prosecution. With respect to harassment investigations, the goal is to gather evidence, yes, but with the goal of solving problems if possible, and if necessary moving on to a formal complaint mechanism.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
People within that same organization would obviously have a similar mindset. There are other organizations—big military or paramilitary organizations, such as the Canadian Forces, for example—and there might be something that could work either way. If the CF were having a problem, having somebody with a similar philosophical bent in terms of law and order and discipline and so on might be useful in going across to their side.
9:10 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Indeed, that would make eminent good sense, because the Canadian armed services did have issues in this regard, which they addressed in a very forceful and determined manner.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
If there were some perceived need, do you think that the RCMP would be receptive to something like that? I'm not speaking on behalf of the Canadian Forces, but do you think they'd be receptive to that kind of approach?
9:10 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Again, you're asking me to speculate on what the RCMP's reaction might be. I can only say that what we've all heard publicly and what I've been told privately is that the RCMP is absolutely determined to deal with this matter.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Mr. Hawn.
I will move back to Mr. Scarpaleggia, please, for seven minutes.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you, Chair.
Welcome back to the committee, Mr. McPhail.
Obviously, there's a cost associated with your recommendations, but as I understand it, it wasn't really your role to cost out the implementation of the recommendations.
As an aside, these are excellent recommendations, and I hope the RCMP will devote the resources required to implement them fully—but again in an environment where there are cost constraints and the government is cutting the RCMP, and there are the other demands on the RCMP that we have heard about, especially in our study on the costs of policing. I have my doubts that the recommendations will be fully implemented to the extent you would like because of cost constraints. But that's not really for you to comment on, I guess.
Regarding recommendation number six, are there harassment investigators at the moment?
9:10 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Yes.
9:10 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Who are these harassment investigators? Are they line managers who have a part-time responsibility for looking into harassment complaints, or are these specialized, dedicated roles within the organization?
February 26th, 2013 / 9:15 a.m.
Richard Evans Senior Director, Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
The short answer would be that it's a combination of both.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
It's a combination of both, and they don't receive any kind of specialized training at the moment?
9:15 a.m.
Senior Director, Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
No, there is formal harassment training offered by other, outside agencies from the RCMP. An RCMP member, as a trained police officer, as Mr. McPhail said, can be assigned a harassment investigation. In addition to that, elsewhere there could be specialized resources trained externally.