Public Safety Committee on Feb. 26th, 2013

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Well, if I can, I will. I just don't know that we have that information. I don't know that we measure.... When we go out to a particular community or something and make a presentation to folks, we have a number of people who would respond to that. I don't know whether that information is available. I'll certainly inquire, and if it is available I'll provide it to the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

We'll now move back to the government side, to Mr. Merrifield, please.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you for coming in and explaining your perspective on this report.

When it comes to sexual harassment, I think Canadians and all of us feel better that the report shows that sexual harassment within the force—albeit that one case is too many—is not necessarily the major issue. But the report points to bullying and general harassment as a major problem, and if you're going to reach the goal of, I think, 25% more females by the year 2025 as the goal—

[Commr Bob Paulson]

It's 30%.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

—I'm sorry, 30%—not only are they going to have to feel that the workplace is harassment-free, but so are the males. It's not a gender issue; it's an issue, if you're going into the RCMP as an occupation, of feeling comfortable that you're not going to be harassed in the workplace.

There are two problems, as I see it: one is within the force, in making certain that this is dealt with, and I think Bill C-42 will help, and this report hopefully will help; the second one is that you have a major problem of confidence among the public you're serving, the problem of making sure that they feel confident this is taking place within the force.

From that perspective, could you comment on both of those sides and on how you're going to get there? Recommendation 11 says that there will be a comprehensive method of evaluation to make certain that it takes place, and that you'll report on in that matter to the public.

Can you give us your perspective on how you're going to accomplish this and then how you're going to report it?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Sure. Thank you for that question.

Our action plan addresses many of the issues identified in the CPC's report. We plan to report frequently on our progress. That's an ingredient toward re-establishing and reacquiring the public trust that, as you've described, has been impacted by these unfortunate, unnecessary, and outrageous behaviours.

That's my plan, frankly: to implement the action plan, to report to government and to Canadians on its progress. But I really feel also, going back to my comment around fixing an airplane in flight, that if we concentrate on delivering our core business to Canadians, which is keeping them safe in their homes and their communities—delivering on our operational obligations—that too will begin to re-establish trust and confidence in the force.

The public aspect, demonstrating progress, will be there—as the CPC recommends as well—and we'll see whether we're making progress or not making progress. We've made some benchmarks of reducing harassment complaints, and we'll be held to doing that.

Thank you.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

How would you rate the morale in the workplace today? Is it getting better or worse in the last 12 months?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I thought it was getting better recently, but I can tell you, frankly, that I was just in Grande Prairie, where I had a town hall meeting with the folks there, and it's a very busy policing environment in Grande Prairie.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I come from that area, and I can do—

[Commr Bob Paulson]

It was smart of me to choose it, then.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I could have told you that there are some problems there.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

But to the point of your question, the members were looking at me and wondering, when is this over, when are we out? My response is that it will be as soon as everybody is engaged and holding up their end of this thing. I think the men and women of this force, the employees of this organization, love the business of the organization. They love to be free—supported, empowered—to do the work of this police force. When they do it well, everybody's happy, except for the crooks. So that's what we need to do.

To answer your question, I think morale is steady and needs to improve.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Merrifield and Mr. Commissioner.

We'll move back to the NDP. We'll go to Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Commissioner, for being here today.

Certainly, we do welcome the Gender and Respect report. We may have some questions about gaps in reporting. Also, I wish you luck in doing it without proper resources. However, it's a bit like some of the questions I had for Mr. McPhail, in that the report tends to look down rather than at the broader context.

On page 4, you say that the RCMP stands to gain little by denying the obvious. I think there are two big challenges that aren't really addressed here directly and that will in some ways determine the success of your plan.

One of those is the fact you have more than 200 women in class action lawsuits against the RCMP. They don't show up in Mr. McPhail's report because he didn't look at them, so that makes it easy for people to say that there really isn't a problem with sexual harassment that's systemic. I don't care whether the word “systemic” is there or not. There's a problem.

We have that one, and you have also have the recent human rights report on missing and murdered aboriginal women, which says, whether you agree with the report or not, that women don't come forward because they don't trust the existing system.

I guess that's my question. How do you plan to address these two really big challenges that provide a context which would seem to me to determine whether you can succeed in recruiting more women in the RCMP?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me start right away by separating those two issues that you've linked together there. I see them as completely separate. I can see how you might want to bring them into the same sentence, but women in the organization need to have confidence in a safe work environment, and that's the thrust of our action plan, not just for women, but for men, for all employees.

When I say that we're not going to deny the obvious, I haven't been denying the obvious. I know we have a problem, and we're trying to fix it. The idea, though, that we can have allegations made and not yet established forming the basis of some big revamping of processes and systems is foreign to me. That doesn't make any sense. That's why I wanted to have that gender-based assessment. I need objective facts on which to formulate a response.

I have a vision for the organization. We're going forward. These things pop up. I need to understand them to fix them. That's the internal mechanism around some of these lawsuits and so on.

I know women in the organization who have been harassed. I've met with them. I've cried with them. It's terrible what has happened to some of them. We need to make that right, and we're trying to make it right.

Let's park that for a second and let's talk about Human Rights Watch. There again, I think, the idea that women are afraid to come forward, I need to understand that. I need to understand if that's true. That's not my experience. It's not my experience that complainants are afraid to come forward out of fear of reprisals from the RCMP. That's foreign to me, so I need more information, and I need to get that. I think we really need to be careful around going too far out on a limb on some of those cases.

There are some terrible cases. There's a case in that Human Rights Watch report that is before the courts right now. An officer is alleged to have struck a young woman in the face during an arrest. We charged him. He's before the courts, criminally charged, right now. We didn't wait to do that.

We have to be careful, I think, as we go forward. I want to hear all the information. I want to understand this. I want to have colleagues and my partners understand it, and if something needs fixing, we're going to fix it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

You have about 45 seconds now.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

I guess I would say that when you're talking about target groups for recruiting, target groups you want to work with, in order to reach out to those groups and communicate effectively, somehow you're going to have to overcome this perception out there that there's a mistrust of the system. Whether or not it's real or a case-by-case thing you could prosecute, you still have that problem.

For instance, how are you going to reach out to aboriginal women and encourage them to join the RCMP while you still have this accusation and perception about the force?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Okay. It's a fair question, Mr. Chair, but we are reaching out to aboriginal women. Aboriginal women are coming into the force.

Let me point to the four major investigative campaigns that are going on in western Canada right now to investigate violence and missing and murdered women. There is Project Devote in Manitoba. In Alberta, there is Project KARE; and in B.C., there are Projects E-PANA and Even-Handed. All have very sophisticated, elaborate, and developed outreach systems and programs to victim groups and community groups. That's why I think this Human Rights Watch report has to be carefully assessed as we go forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Commissioner.

Mr. Hawn, we look to you now basically to conclude the questioning for today, which will take us to the end.

Mr. Hawn, please, five minutes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the commissioner for being here again.

Commissioner, do you have enough resources to do your job?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

I could use a couple more commissioners.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Do you have enough financial resources to do your job?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes.