Public Safety Committee on March 5th, 2013

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

That's correct.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Another question I have is for Mr. Bhupsingh. Maybe you can elaborate on one of the points in your opening remarks, where you say:

The RCMP is also taking additional measures to enhance the federal Program by:

—offering the services of legal counsel to all candidates being considered for admission into the federal program;

Can you elaborate on that?

[Trevor Bhupsingh]

Actually, the RCMP has been doing that for all cases. They currently do that, and they will do that moving forward.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

But what does it really involve when you say “offering the services of legal counsel”? What sorts of legal counsel services may be required?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

We recommend that they seek independent legal advice as they enter the program, because it's an agreement they're entering, so that they have the appropriate advice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gill.

I would just like to ask a question that came out of that, and then we'll go quickly right back to Mr. Garrison.

To play out this scenario, you have a witness who you know is going to provide testimony against someone in a case. There's been the charge and the RCMP believe, based on evidence they have, perhaps how big the trial is and who the individual is, that his life might be at risk, or certainly the testimony might be at risk. You would approach that witness then and say, “Listen, we believe you should consider going into this”, or “We would like to place you in this”. Is that how that plays out?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

There's a continual risk assessment done. You're correct, if we're undertaking an investigation and we recognize that one of our witnesses is at risk, we absolutely would approach that witness and ensure that the proper protection is afforded.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

There were 108 assessments and 30 who actually went into the program. Have there been cases where you've approached these folks and they've said “No, I'm not interested at all”? Is it their decision, or is it someone in the RCMP...? Who makes the decision in those denials? Is it many times the witnesses?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

We're not going to leave someone at risk, but we have people who we've identified were at risk and they've thanked us for our concern and have clearly indicated they have no interest in our protection or entering any of our programs.

With regard to the 108, I think it's clear to the committee that in many instances that evaluation is done before that person is at any type of risk. If we're going to undertake the investigation and we do the evaluation and decide not to utilize that witness, the witness is never put in the situation where he or she would be at risk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

What percentage of those witnesses who have denied going into that protection program have been injured, or have some been killed?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

Not that I'm aware of.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right, thank you.

Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to the question of overall budget. You talked about the fact that we have 800 to a thousand people, somewhere in that area, in the program now. That means we have quite a large annual budget for witness protection. Can you give us an idea of the magnitude of that budget? I have figures....

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

Last year's budget was about $9.1 million.

I think what has to be clear as well is that of the 800 or 1,000 people who are within the program, some of those people are self-sufficient within the program as the years progress, so they remain within the program but they're self-sufficient in their daily life. There is no reliance. We operate in the background if they need us.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Is that $9 million figure a net? In other words, cost recoveries from other law enforcement agencies would not be included in that?

[Insp Greg Bowen]

No, the other agencies—as I think the assistant commissioner said earlier—pay for what's in the protection agreement. So the numbers that Assistant Commissioner Shean just made reference to are RCMP costs. Those do not include the costs, for instance, associated with a Winnipeg city police case.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

So we don't actually have anywhere in front of us the total cost that the public is spending on witness protection.

[Insp Greg Bowen]

No. The numbers that have been provided by the assistant commissioner directly reflect the costs the RCMP has incurred.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

It's the direct cost to the RCMP.

[Insp Greg Bowen]

Yes, sir.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Would those figures be available? Do we know how we could come across those figures?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

We would have the figures of the federal program. It depends on the province that the particular witness comes from. We don't monitor their expenses or what choices they make with regard to how they protect the persons within their programs.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

When you say 800 to 1,000 people, that's just in the federal program, right?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

That's correct.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

And again, we haven't seen any numbers of how many are in provincial programs. You wouldn't have those necessarily.