Public Safety Committee on March 5th, 2013

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

We will immediately increase resources. We have increased the resources allocated to our witness protection unit. It is always a matter of assessing the risks for witnesses. There are many ways to protect witnesses: there is the protection service and temporary services. I am confident that we have the means to manage the program effectively.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Have you done an internal study on the number of additional people, perhaps on an annual basis, who would be interested in signing up for the witness protection program? Do you have an idea of that increase, as a percentage?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

What we did was look at what had happened over the years and we established an average number of people who want to participate in the program. We are aware of the amendments in Bill C-51. We have therefore made improvements to the program. We have added psychologists. We have separated admission decisions from investigations. We are satisfied with our resources; they suffice for the program as it exists today. We are confident that we will be able to manage this program effectively within our budgets.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much. We'll come back to you. You'll have lots of time for more questions.

We'll move over to Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you to the witnesses, thank you for appearing today.

Let me just do a little bit of recapping, because there seems to be some misunderstanding with regard to people involved in the witness protection program.

Generally speaking, is it not the case—short answers help get through the questions—that a police department operating in a province that has a witness protection program is responsible for most of the costs, as a matter of fact almost all of the costs, with the exception of the costs of the salaries of the federal government employees who are assisting them in obtaining federal government identification, etc.? Is that true, generally speaking?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

Yes, but it depends on whether they're being referred to the provincial program or the federal program.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

That's correct. If it's a federal investigation, in other words, the RCMP is investigating organized crime—working with other police departments but primarily led by the RCMP—it is a federal program. Let's say it's a person involved in several murders in a province and a provincial police agency or a police agency in that municipality or province sees the need for witnesses to be protected. They can move to another province with the assistance of the federal government or they can remain in that province, but it is still the responsibility of the police jurisdiction within that province for the bulk of the costs, except for salaries of federal people and the assistance given to them for federal identification.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

If they are coming into the federal program, yes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Yes. That's when you get involved. That's what I'm saying.

There are programs where the federal government doesn't get involved. Is that not correct?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

It's correct. As you said, it's not cut and dried all the time.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Having said all that, we have to say, for the benefit of my constituents and the people out there, that it's basically a customized program. It depends on the circumstances of the individual as to whether or not there are multiple agencies involved or just one agency involved. In other words, you can't really nail it down to one specific where it's the same for everybody. Each case has complexities within it that you deal with, but in essence there is provincial and federal involvement in every case, because the person may need a SIN number—not in every case, but in many cases, if they need a new SIN number or a change in passport, because people do, you take care of that, or you work with that agency to take care of it. That's the cooperation you do, generally.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

With the provincial program, in essence, that's correct. They come to us and we assist with obtaining federal documents.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

But they take care of their own business as far as finding a place for the person to live and those other types of things, if they are within their provincial program, within the province.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

Yes, I would agree with that.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

When it comes to acceptance of the new program under Bill C-51—and this question would be to the officials—I'm given to believe that the Minister of Justice for Saskatchewan and the Minister of Justice for British Columbia have made positive statements. I understand Gordon Wyant, the justice minister, said they'll help strengthen the system by providing greater protection for witnesses. This is the new regime. Shirley Bond, the Minister of Justice for British Columbia, says she's looking forward to working with us because she thinks it's a positive step in the right direction. Tom Stamatakis, president of the Canadian Police Association, says the association strongly believes that this proposed legislation will enhance safety and security for front-line officers and personnel engaged in protection duties. Chief Blair of Toronto said some positive things.

Would you say, sir, that this is as a result of the two rounds of consultations you've made?

[Trevor Bhupsingh]

Yes. When we went out it was for fairly extensive discussions, and the department went out, obviously, with our colleagues at the RCMP. We did that over a period of time. The genesis of Bill C-51 is the product of the better part of a number of years of going out and consulting with various stakeholders, taking seriously the review that was done by this committee in 2008, and taking on board a lot of the recommendations that came out of the Air India inquiry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Norlock. Sorry, it's a five-minute round.

We'll move to Mr. Rafferty, please, for five minutes.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you for being here.

I have a question for each of you. I only have five minutes, but I'll try my best here.

Ms. Mugford and Inspector Bowen are first.

I'll ask you, Ms. Mugford, and perhaps you could fill in the blanks or add something to the question. How does one typically find out about the program, make a request, and get into the program, if there is a typical case? I'm interested, and as this is a public session, I'm sure the public is probably interested in that. How does it happen that someone gets into a program, typically?

[Julie Mugford]

Typically, it's a referral by a law enforcement agency at this point. It's not an application process; it's through an investigation.

I think the RCMP would be better placed to answer more fully.

[Insp Greg Bowen]

Very early on in the investigation, investigators will look at all the different aspects of the investigation. If they plan, for instance, to use persons who they know will ultimately end up testifying and they anticipate a threat—and that is based on a threat assessment. The threat assessment will dictate what measures may be considered to provide these individuals with protection.

Last year we did approximately 108 assessments. Those aren't people who are currently at risk. Those are people for whom there is consideration being given on whether to advance a particular investigation or not. When you're looking at advancing investigations, there are myriad considerations. One of those considerations, and a very important consideration, is whether there will be risk to potential participants in that investigation.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Are there any participants in the program at the moment who are permanently relocated outside of Canada? Or is that typically not done?

[Insp Greg Bowen]

That's typically not done.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

But perhaps there may be.

[Insp Greg Bowen]

There's always consideration for that, yes.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Deputy Commissioner and Mr. Bhupsingh, youth gang activity is certainly on the increase in first nations, on first nations reserves and among urban aboriginals. Because they would be a special sort of group to deal with, I'm wondering if anything is being done to ensure members have access to the witness protection program. I'm thinking in particular of education and outreach and access to the program for first nations.