Evidence of meeting #74 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:20 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The word “temporary”.... There are provincial witness protection programs that afford a regime for protection of witnesses within the province. Provinces can certainly refer to the federal program. They're two different programs, but there are regimes.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
At what point would the province refer to the federal program? What would be the decision-making point there?
9:20 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
There could be a number of different trigger points. The province could decide it's a provincial case and they're referring it to their own program and will deal with the protectee within the confines of their program. Or for some reason they could feel there are intricacies within the program that they feel they would be better suited to the federal program.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
If they decided to remain within the provincial program, could they still get the federal paperwork they need?
9:25 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
They always could, and this legislation now with the designated...it will streamline that process.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
I see.
I'm going to follow up on Mr. Hawn's line of questioning about terrorism cases. Let's say we're talking about a witness in a terrorism case. That's a criminal case, so why would the witness in that terrorism case not be eligible today for the federal witness protection program? There would be a court case, I would imagine, and CSIS might be involved in some of the background work, but I would imagine the RCMP would be involved at some point.
9:25 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
They are eligible today. Simply with the amendments to the legislation now, if CSIS so chooses, they could refer witnesses to the witness protection program
9:25 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
That's correct.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
In the case of witnesses in a National Defence context being protected, could you give me an example of what that kind of case could be?
9:25 a.m.
Officer in Charge, Witness Protection Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Certainly the military police have a certain capacity to conduct investigations. I think another component might be perhaps certain individuals who are at risk as a result of their assistance provided to the Canadian Forces in some of their international operations, perhaps.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
9:25 a.m.
Officer in Charge, Witness Protection Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes. I suppose anything.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
In terms of adding a program to schedule 1, what are the criteria for making a provincial or municipal program a designated program? Is there a certain level of quality of protection that a program must provide in order to become a designated program, or will all municipal and provincial programs be automatically designated?
9:25 a.m.
Julie Mugford Director, Research and National Coordination, Organized Crime Division, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
One of the things we would look at is whether there is a provincial confirmation, probably from an attorney general or a minister of justice, that their program has the capacity to protect information and protectees, and that there's a termination process—a couple of things along those lines.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
I know we're broadening the net of protection, or actually broadening the kind of information that can be divulged, from just information about the witness to information about the program and about the people running the program. Is that in response to a problem you've seen? Have some people, other than the witnesses, been threatened or somehow targeted, maybe the people running the program, the public servants, and so on?
9:25 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Not in any case that I could point to specifically. We recognize that the level of criminality is becoming more sophisticated, so this legislation affords that protection.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you all for being here to enlighten us on Bill C-51. We are very glad to have you.
I have found the discussions on witness protection extremely interesting. My conservative colleague Mr. Hawn commented on witness protection within penitentiaries. That reminds me of something. In my riding, the Leclerc Institution is currently being closed. It had a specialized wing for witness protection. I hope the government will take that into account and replace it elsewhere. Witnesses were protected by being isolated from the rest of the prison population. I wanted to clarify things.
One comment surprised me. The City of Montreal has its own witness protection program. How does that work? Some provinces have witness protection programs, but does the City of Montreal really have its own witness protection program? I don't know if you have a bit more information or if you know how it works. Do the three levels of government in Quebec have a witness protection program?
9:25 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I don't want to venture an answer because I don't have specific information about their program.
9:25 a.m.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
Is it the only city in Canada that has such a program? Do other cities also have a witness protection program?
9:25 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I think other police services have some aspects of a witness protection program. That may be the case in Montreal or Toronto. My colleague tells me that the City of Montreal has a certain program, but I am not very aware of what it does.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
Okay.
I was also interested in the discussions around costs. The approximate annual costs of the program for four people were provided. It was said that the protection is for life.
Furthermore, since it is the RCMP that pays for witness protection federally, I want to be sure of one thing. If I am not mistaken, Bill C-51 does not provide more money for witness protection. You are therefore responsible, whether it was intended or not, for the costs directly related to witness protection. The bill expands eligibility criteria for the program. How will that work? Your budget will be a bit reduced. Will you be able to cover the costs entailed by Bill C-51? I would like to know.
9:30 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I am confident that we have the necessary resources to conduct an effective witness protection program, even with what Bill C-51 adds.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
So even with Bill C-51, it will be possible to do so. A lack of funding for witness protection won't force you to pay less attention to some groups that would perhaps be seen as less important or something.
