Public Safety Committee on June 12th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Just out of my own curiosity, before I call on Mr. Motz, if I want to find a restaurant, there's an app. If I want to find a bank, there's an app. Is there an app for this kind of defibrillator? Do you know?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

No, but my son works in computers, so I'll give him the idea of setting up such a project. He could get very rich.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll call your son as a witness.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Honestly, I think that's a great idea. That would be a very interesting option.

Let me use my municipality as an example, because it is very specific. After it was equipped with defibrillators, the communications department posted the information on its website, but people still need to think about checking the municipality's website to find out where they can find a defibrillator. It would be nice if there were a little free app. I am sure that creating such an app would not be very expensive. It could be a good sign of leadership on the part of the government to create such an app or to entrust this fine project to a young person.

That's a very good idea, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

It sounds like a project for a retiring politician who had the idea.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Are you anticipating somebody retiring?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

No, not anytime soon.

Mr. Rayes, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for your leadership not only in your own city, but here in presenting this motion for us.

From someone whose police service from my prior life had defibrillators, one of the last things I did from the executive branch of our police service was acquire more defibrillators, AEDs, for our police service. There are a lot of different ways to go about the process. We partnered with Alberta Health Services.

Mr. Dubé asked about paramedics. I'm not aware of any ambulance crew in this country that does not have an AED in their vehicle. This is something that they do; it's a life-saving piece of equipment.

We partnered with our Alberta Health Services people, which our EMS is under, and we acquired a significant number of those to put into our cars. We've already had them in our cars for years. They do save lives. We have saved dozens of those with our members responding as first responders. In our service, we responded as medical responders as a matter of practice. It's something that many police services across the country do. As you said, police can get there faster.

Fire services in some jurisdictions also have them, because they do medical first response as well. That does make a difference.

Mr. Dubé asked about maintenance. From our own experience, the supplier had a maintenance schedule. Our occupational health and safety people within each organization were responsible for ensuring that the series of AEDs received their maintenance.

On their lifespan, with anything, it depends on the care that's taken. They're in pretty durable cases. In a first responder's vehicle they are banged around a lot; they're not kept in the glove box in cars. They are in the trunk, generally. We have never had one damaged to the point that it could not be functional, so they are durable.

You're suggesting the RCMP, as Ms. Damoff asked, and you also suggested that maybe the indigenous police services have them as well.

Do you see that the costing of this could be shared between suppliers and other forms of government besides leaving it to the municipalities, that federal or provincial governments be responsible?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Yeah, that's right. A priori, if the federal government takes the initiative, it could take responsibility for the file and ensure that the entire territory is adequately equipped at the same time. This wouldn't be the first time the federal government has taken action that affects all of Canada, regardless of province or territory. This could even be part of the negotiations on health funds transferred to the provinces and territories. A provision could be included for an additional amount for this measure.

Keep in mind that, for the entire territory, the total cost of this measure is estimated at about $8 million. Generally speaking, this would represent $750,000 per province or territory, if they all had the same population. That is very little, compared to other amounts that are transferred. It would be relatively easy to do.

The more we talk about it, the more interesting I find the idea of including First Nations in the calculation. I don't think that was part of the $8 million I arrived at. Anyway, I don't think it would be much higher if First Nations were included.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

If I heard you correctly, the suggestion would be that potentially the federal government could take a leadership role in providing the encouragement to provinces and municipalities to do this. It could also provide a portion of a funding formula that could work, if I'm hearing you right, to equip vehicles. It could lead by demonstrating that those organizations for which it is responsible not only have the equipment but have the training to deal with it appropriately.

Is that a proper understanding of what you are suggesting, which could be a way forward?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Yes, that would be very appropriate.

I repeat that I hope the federal government will take responsibility for this file. In my opinion, the amount of money is completely laughable compared to the magnitude of the benefits it could have on the population as a whole.

Will the government decide to negotiate for training to be taken over by professional organizations? This could be quite appropriate as well, since they already offer training. Given your experience, you could tell us more, but I think it would be very simple to then add half an hour or an hour to the emergency training offered to all stakeholders in all sectors.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Ms. Dabrusin, you have five minutes.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you very much.

I was very pleased to support this motion when it was introduced in the House of Commons. I had the opportunity to talk a little bit about it in the House.

In my preparatory research, there was one thing I found interesting. The City of Toronto has conducted a study to find out where defibrillators should be placed so people can find them quickly. The study showed that if defibrillators were placed in a place well known to people, they would be easy to find. The example was given of Tim Hortons restaurants, but it could be other places as well. For example, if they were in Burger King restaurants, people would always know where to find one.

Someone said that the RCMP covers about 15% of the population; the rest of the population is in urban areas. Do you think it would be a good idea to recommend that there be defibrillators in other places more effective than police cars, so that people can find them quickly?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Yes. My motion ignores that because I limited myself to emergency vehicles. I didn't want to start interfering with other jurisdictions. That said, this measure could go very far. It could go as far as municipalities. It could even be applied through school boards across Canada. We should think about that. This has been a challenge for many sports facilities. Another challenge we faced was sitting down with the school board and the health care centre to make sure they were everywhere in the municipality.

The examples you're talking about are in the private sector. Could we raise awareness so that these organizations can equip themselves with devices? I don't believe that the government should pay instead of private companies in this case.

However, if the movement is well under way, perhaps it would be appropriate for the various chambers of commerce associations or federations, such as the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, to conduct awareness campaigns. Ultimately, this could be a tax credit. It might be a good idea to offer a tax credit to any company that decides to purchase a defibrillator.

That being said, I want to say that this is not part of my motion. However, if you want to make a recommendation to go further, I would be happy to do so, and I would see no problem with that, provided, of course, that my motion is adopted first.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

The other part is the Heart and Stroke Foundation. It said that 80% of premature heart attacks are in fact preventable by a healthy lifestyle, which goes to the other side of the equation. You presented well as to why we would need AEDs when someone is having a heart attack, but in fact what we really should be doing is also focusing on the time before they get to that point. I found that to be a stark number, 80%. I'm always very interested in trying to get to the part about healthy living and healthy lifestyles, active living, so we can ensure that people don't need AEDs. While this is public safety and national security, if we make a recommendation to spend money on AEDs, should we also not be looking upstream as to how we can prevent this from being needed?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Your data is correct. It has been shown that 80% of heart problems could be prevented by smoking less, eating better, drinking less alcohol and, of course, exercising more. Prevention is the key to success in improving our quality of life, living longer and, above all, living better. That said, even a perfectly healthy person can go into cardiac arrest. That is why this motion was introduced.

Indeed, this should not in any way minimize the efforts and work to promote healthy lifestyles that all organizations do at all levels. I no longer know what the health budget is across Canada, but it must be well over 50% of the total budget. Emergencies are always being responded to, and perhaps not enough is being done in terms of prevention. You're absolutely right that it doesn't take away from our obligation to insist that there be prevention work.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

Mr. Maguire, welcome to the committee.

You have five minutes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I really appreciate this motion coming forward. This is something I have been dealing with in my own constituency since I was an MLA in provincial politics. We've looked at a number of service clubs being involved in putting these into town halls, community arenas, and a number of other places. The price of these was somewhat higher at one time. You talked about technology. I'm assuming the cost will continue to come down for the development of these, as we move forward.

There are two specific areas you have talked about, one that I hadn't thought of as much. It was always a concern as to where these were located in public buildings. I also believe that they need to be in businesses, and that business needs to be involved in this. We have safety training courses and a number of those types of needs in business today by rules of operations, but the signage is very important. I'd like you to elaborate on that. How can that be fitted into the use and the cost of each one?

The education process is extremely important. It's a fail-safe type of an operation or piece of equipment, but I think the education goes to the questions Ms. Dabrusin was just asking about. We need to have a healthy lifestyle anyway. If we have that healthy lifestyle, maybe this will just put it off for five or 10 more years before you might need this AED anyway. If that's the case, so be it. It doesn't happen that way for everyone. I've seen a number of very—quote—“fit” people just fall over from heart attacks. That's been well logged in Canadian history over the last decades, and centuries, probably.

Can you elaborate on how other groups could be involved, whether they're service groups or chambers of commerce, as you said? Can you elaborate on the importance of the signage and education?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

First, I will talk about business people. Everyone is aware of the labour shortage across Canada. If I owned a business, I would want to take care of my staff. Many companies offer favourable conditions to do more sports, give credits to employees who become members of a fitness centre, or install showers and training centres on site. Not all companies do this, but those with the means do.

I love the idea that has been put forward of offering tax credits to companies that buy defibrillators, which would increase the number of defibrillators.

I seem to be hammering away and repeating myself, but that has nothing to do with my motion. I wanted to focus on emergency vehicles across Canada. However, if the expert testimony leads you to make other recommendations that will increase the number of these devices and increase the federal government's efforts to promote healthy lifestyles, I am certainly not the one who will oppose them. On the contrary, I would be very happy. However, I would like us to focus on one thing. I would not want the report to be overburdened and the essential thing forgotten, which is to equip all emergency vehicles across Canada with defibrillators.

I'm not an expert in health or science, but I know that even if a person is very fit, they can go into cardiac arrest. We see that most cardiac arrests occur in sports venues. We all exercise to get fit, but unfortunately we can get injured. For various reasons, people go into cardiac arrest with intense effort. It's a big issue.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

That's very accurate. I know of people who have been working out at the YMCA, for example, who have almost died of a heart attack right in the Y, and this type of equipment saved their lives because it was there. That's one area.

There may be a comparison. I don't know if you can draw a comparison. Maybe a second part of the motion would be to study how AEDs are used in other parts of the world. Have you had any recommendations on that?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Be very brief, please.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

That is a very wise comment. I haven't checked whether governments elsewhere in the world have taken the initiative to do that. I invite you to ask that we do some research on this subject. It was about whether we are lagging behind other countries or whether we will become leaders in the field.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

That was my point.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Maguire.

Welcome, Mr. Boissonnault.