Public Safety Committee on June 12th, 2018

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Oh, I have no doubt that—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

—in exactly those kinds of measures, attempting to protect themselves, and who continue to face repeated break-ins and robberies and threats to their families—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

My question is more along—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

—and to their homes. Now it is at a point where they are on the verge of being refused personal and business insurance because of their experiences. Without a doubt I think rural Canadians would be the first to say that they take personal responsibility for themselves and their communities—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I have maybe 15 or 20 seconds, so if I could just sum up by saying I have—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

—but they're spending thousands of dollars to do that themselves.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

—no doubt that the technology is there and that it can be used and is being used. I just wanted to know your thoughts on how it can be best employed to deal with it.

One last thing—and you don't have to answer this—is that I'm interested in the committee looking at this whole question of the inherent difficulties in rural policing simply because of geography and the rural and remote nature of so many of these communities, and what that means for policing.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Liepert, you have five minutes. Welcome to the committee.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I know that one of the Liberal members of Parliament is publicly on record as having a contract with a construction company, and after that line of questioning, I wonder if the member is on retainer with the Criminal Trial Lawyers Association. That's unbelievable.

After listening to that line of questioning, Mr. Chair, I suggest this committee should take a trip to Alberta and Saskatchewan. I don't represent a rural riding, but there isn't a day that goes by when we don't hear about this issue, and to trot out those kinds of statistics....I don't know where that comes from, but it sure doesn't come from the ground if you have your feet on the ground in Alberta or Saskatchewan, I'll tell you, sir.

Anyway, why don't you answer Mr. Motz's question that you didn't get a chance to answer?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Oh, shoot. Remind me what it was.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I've had these discussions with the forces, as well. It's not that they can't recruit or that they have a shortage of people; it's the fact that many RCMP officers are—

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes, right.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

—off on stress leave.... The other thing that's a factor with the RCMP today, I'm told, is that there's an increasing number of RCMP officers who are women on maternity leave, which is a natural thing to happen. Therefore, you have all these vacancies, but you can't go to a temp agency to replace them. It's not necessarily just the shortage, but rather the fact that these are positions that are temporarily vacant.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Yes, I would just affirm that I've heard exactly the same things from RCMP representatives, certainly in Saskatchewan, with many senior members who were there when I travelled to three different town halls. They raised that issue. They indicated that's been—and Glen would probably know personally—a bit of a long-term challenge. My view is that's exactly the kind of issue your committee should look at. It's, I think, a federal responsibility to assess whether or not the issue is resourcing to the RCMP and finding out from the RCMP what needs to be done to address these issues of lack of boots on the ground and—

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

There is one other thing I would like to throw out there. Mr. Dubé mentioned police forces. When you get outside the four or five major centres in Alberta, there are no municipal police forces. Camrose is an anomaly: a smaller centre with a municipal police force.

Have you done any research on whether the existence of a provincial police force such as Ontario and Quebec have, which may or may not be more able to staff these regions...? Is there a correlation between rural crime in those provinces and that in Saskatchewan and Alberta, which do not have provincial police forces?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

That would be a very interesting subject for your committee to get into. As Albertans, we know that conversation comes up in a cyclical way every few years.

It would be very interesting to identify the gaps or differences between places where there is a provincial police force and also the RCMP and the applicability of that model to various provinces, which ultimately should be decided by provincial governments and their citizens.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I have a minute and a half, and I'm going to ask a question that I think can be done in a minute. My colleague would like the last half minute.

It has been a common belief and may have been proven that many of these crimes are tied to drugs, alcohol, and so on. Do you have thoughts on whether the ability to grow marijuana in your own home after July 1, or whenever it's going to be, is going to have a further negative impact?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I certainly hear lots of concerns, both from municipalities that are still grappling with their roles and responsibilities in terms of bylaw development and how they deal with that issue and from indigenous communities, which have raised serious concerns about that issue and its impact on rural crime in general.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I'll turn it over to my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You're down to 20 seconds.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

That's all he needs.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

Chair, I'd like to give notice of a motion:

That, the Committee invite the Minister of Public Safety to appear before it, no later than Thursday, June 21, 2018, to provide an explanation of the discrepancies found in the list of individuals he claims to have consulted on Bill C-71.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Spengemann, you have five minutes.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Ms. Stubbs, thanks you for bringing forward the motion, and thank you for being with us. It's evident that you're representing your constituents in a very genuine and capable manner by bringing this motion forward. I think it's very important for this committee to hear the rural voice and to have a balanced view. Canada is an incredibly large country—the second largest land mass—and so much of our geography is rural.

In contrast to Mr. Fragiskatos, who put some statistics to you, I want to go a bit more into the qualitative side so that you can give the committee more of an appreciation of what it's like to be the victim of the kinds of crimes you're describing. We had a range of them. You've described gang-related crimes, and there was some discussion on violent crimes. There was also property crime, and we can probably distinguish petty property theft from theft of larger items and organized crime rings focusing on property theft.

What are you hearing from your constituents with respect to how these crimes impact them? Which ones have the most psychological and economic impact on the community you're serving and representing?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

The impact is twofold; it is both financial cost and emotional cost. In the case of taking personal responsibility, many rural residents have equipped themselves with security systems in their shops and homes and they are striking up citizens on patrol—regular watches during which they get into their pickup trucks and drive around the area. They report suspicious vehicles to each other, and if there is an offender on the property, a neighbour will call a neighbour, who will then call another neighbour. That neighbour will call the police, but the first neighbour called will go to the farm to either scare the people off the property or to assist, if required. That is what is actually happening out there.

Not only are there costs in loss of equipment and vehicles and for security systems, but obviously there are safety concerns and feelings of vulnerability, anxiety, fear.