Evidence of meeting #134 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cost.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ruby Sahota  Brampton North, Lib.
Jim Eglinski  Yellowhead, CPC

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I see quorum, I see that it's past 3:30, and I see that our friend Mr. Long is here. This is a happy set of circumstances. We had a bit of a gap in the agenda, and Tuesday night the House passed a motion unanimously and it was referred to this committee. A lot of good things all came together.

Mr. Long, welcome to the committee. You're on for your presentation for however long it may take, and then we'll have a formal or informal question and answer period, although right now more formal questions.

Welcome.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and all members of the committee.

Mr. Chair, you said I have as long as it takes. How long do I have?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I knew as soon as I said it that it was a mistake to say to a politician that he has as long as it takes.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

In full transparency, I'll probably be 10 to 15 minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Well, 10 would be better than 15, and less than 10 would be better again.

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

You don't really have as long as you thought.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Then I'd better get going.

I certainly applaud the speed with which I'm actually in front of your committee. My motion was just passed on Tuesday. Thank you for the wonderful opportunity to be here so quickly.

I'll give you some background on my riding of Saint John—Rothesay and me as a politician. Obviously, this is my first term as a politician. My riding is one with two stories. It's a riding of immense business success, with the Irvings, Moosehead Breweries, etc., but it's also a riding with an incredible amount of generational poverty and a lot of challenges. We do lead the country by the LIM, low-income measure, in childhood poverty, and some pockets of my riding have upwards of 50%, 60% and 70% child poverty. It's a major challenge.

One of the things that I wanted to do as a member of Parliament and had a passion for was to speak for those who didn't have a strong voice. There's no greater honour than representing those who struggle day in and day out in my riding, and this is obviously for all of us across the country. I take it personally and I'm proud of what we do.

My office serves breakfast to 25 to 30 men at the men's shelter every Saturday morning year-round in Saint John. We also offer sandwiches out of my member's office daily. In the morning we make 30 to 40 sandwiches for those who are hungry, because there are many people in my riding who are hungry. I can remember some people coming in to get a sandwich and they were saying, “Where am I?” At first I was told that an MP's office shouldn't do that, and I said I didn't agree. I was told about the people who came in, “That's not really the kind of people you want in a constituency office, sir.” I said, “No, I totally disagree. They're my constituents too.”

To lead into M-161, my office developed a lot of personal relationships with people who were coming in, literally off of the street, people who were hungry. As we continued to develop relationships with these men and women, we got to know their stories and their backgrounds and how so many of them had made a mistake.

We've all made mistakes. Every one of us around this table. I'll speak for myself. I continue to make mistakes daily and weekly. But there are so many people who have made a mistake, who have a criminal record, and a wall is put up in front of them that they can't climb. They can't get over that barrier. It's an impediment for them.

I believe in second chances. I believe in second chances when they're deserved. I'd like to believe we live in a society that can forgive, when such forgiveness is shown to be merited. Sometimes, often early in life, mistakes lead to criminal records. When a mistake is properly addressed, it is best for everyone to move on, both the offenders and the society they live in. As a society, we need to be able to provide deserving citizens with a second chance. Unfortunately, for many Canadians, especially those in low-income situations, the criminal justice system often fails to provide a second chance.

I'll give an example provided by my good friends the Elizabeth Fry Society of Saint John. A single mother—let's call her Susan—a young woman with an excellent work record, was offered five well-paying jobs over a six-month period. These offers were all rescinded when it was revealed she had a summary offence on her record. She stole a pair of jeans in 1998—her one and only offence. Now Susan cannot find quality employment, and she cannot afford the cost of a criminal record suspension.

I'll get to this in a second, but I'm learning as I go, too, as a member of Parliament. It's easy to think, “How can you not afford the cost? It's $631.” To somebody living in poverty, $631 is an insurmountable amount of money.

As I said earlier, intergenerational poverty is a chronic condition. It affects far too many citizens in my riding of Saint John—Rothesay.

Since I was elected, I've made it my top priority to represent everyone in my riding. Everyone is always welcome in my office.

To address this problem, I have advocated and continue to advocate for programs and policy changes that would help lift people out of poverty. Our government has brought forward programs like the Canada child benefit, the Canada workers benefit and implemented a national housing strategy, which I'm particularly proud of, being a member on HUMA. Our government has made tremendous strides in three years towards eradicating poverty not only in Saint John—Rothesay but across our country. But there's a lot more we could do.

Past offenders, who are vastly more likely to live in or come from poverty than those without criminal records, still face an often insurmountable socio-economic barrier to re-entry into the workforce and thus to escaping poverty. A criminal record check is a prerequisite for most jobs. Indeed, in one study undertaken by the John Howard Society of Canada, 60% of respondents reported that a criminal record check was an essential prerequisite to employment at their place of work. Many past offenders like Susan cannot afford the $631, the cost of filing an application, although it may seem like not a lot of money to us.

Acting on calls to action by the John Howard Society of Saint John and the Elizabeth Fry Society of Saint John brought forward M-161, in order to spur the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security to undertake a review of the criminal record suspension program. This would determine how the program impacts low-income offenders at present and how it could be changed to better facilitate their reintegration into society.

Many past offenders have paid their debt to society. They are seeking to reintegrate into our communities. They are trying to give themselves and their families better futures. They ought to be able to apply for and obtain meaningful employment regardless of their means. Past offenders who are unable to find work are much more likely—and this is key—to reoffend, interacting with the criminal system all over again.

In this sense, ensuring that past offenders are enabled to apply for and obtain gainful employment is crucial. This is not only part of an effective strategy to eradicate poverty in our community, it is key to combatting crime. It is key to keeping our streets safe. To grow our communities, create more well-paying jobs and ensure that communities across Canada are safe places to live for everyone, we as government must do everything in our power to break down barriers faced by those currently living in poverty.

Senator Kim Pate, a former executive director of the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies, explains the difference between “pardon” and “record suspension”. Let me be clear: The term “pardon” was changed to “record suspension”. This change was clearly made in an effort to make the process more punitive.

A pardon indicates that someone has moved on from where they are. With record suspension, “We're hanging it over your head”, to quote Kim Pate, “like a big dagger about to drop...on you if we perceive you've done something wrong.”

Again, pardons were replaced by record suspensions. The previous government also quadrupled the fee to $631. Wait times for pardon eligibility were increased from three to five years for summary offence and from five to 10 years for indictable offence.

The current system of record suspension takes a terrible toll on low-income Canadians, exacerbating the difficulties of some of our most vulnerable citizens. A poverty round table as part of the federal tackling poverty together project identified criminal records as a significant barrier to employment.

Bill Bastarache, executive director of the John Howard Society in New Brunswick, also supports M-161, as do the Elizabeth Fry Society and countless others.

To be tough on crime, you also need to be tough on poverty, and I believe that Canadians know that people, especially these people who are vulnerable, deserve a second chance.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Long.

Ms. Dabrusin, you have seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Thank you, Mr. Long, for being here. I'm happy to have you here, and I was happy to be able to second the motion.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

I thank you very much for that.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Today you've mentioned a number of people or societies from whom you got some inspiration. You mentioned Senator Kim Pate, the John Howard Society and the Elizabeth Fry Society.

Do you have ideas of other people we should be trying to reach out to as part of this study? It would helpful for us to hear those perspectives.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Yes, I do.

Certainly, as you said, there's the Elizabeth Fry Society. Judith Murphy in Saint John has been absolutely fantastic. There is Dr. Mary Ann Campbell at the University of New Brunswick, who is director of the centre for criminal justice studies. There's Catherine Latimer, the executive director of the John Howard Society of Canada; and Kassandra Churcher, executive director of the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies. Certainly Senator Kim Pate would be a wonderful witness.

I think, really, there would be a wide array of organizations and witnesses right across the country that would recognize that, since 2012 when the price went up to $631 and “record pardon” was changed to “record suspension”....

I believe in talking to the non-profits and organizations around Saint John—Rothesay, the shelters, those who live the life of advocating for those who don't have a strong voice. There is wide, wide support to examine exactly how this happened, why it happened, and the results of that change.

For example, in 2011, the Parole Board of Canada received 29,829 pardon applications. After the changes were made in 2015, it received 12,743 requests for record suspension, down 57%. That's a 57% drop, 17,086 fewer requests. Did crime change over those five years? No. The policy shift actively and demonstrably discouraged Canadians.

What's near and dear to my heart is particularly low-income Canadians trying to move on with their lives. My heart cries for.... I could give you story after story after story of people who came into my constituency office who told me stories that horrified me. She couldn't move on because when she was 18 they stole a bag of diapers from a drugstore, and that bag of diapers is over her head now stopping her from moving on. When you see those barriers, and you sit back objectively, she can't get a job, so she's a part of the system. Can you imagine what a transformational change it would be to have those people contributing to the system, having jobs, paying taxes, renting apartments, buying houses and what have you? That's kind of where we are right now.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I was quite taken by how you were talking about your involvement in the community and everything that you do.

You mentioned it's about the stories, too, the individual stories about impact, which is what we're going to be looking at. Part (a) of the motion refers to examining the impact of a record suspension to help those with a criminal record to reintegrate into society but also the impact of the additional fees and the like on low-income applicants.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

If I may, I think I can offer a unique perspective by the fact that as an MP, my office is so involved on the ground the bottom level of this poverty-homeless chain, if you will.

How many of us—certainly not in this room—how many people in Canada are one paycheque away, one bad break away from losing a home, being on the street, suffering mental illness, falling into poverty? You can't dehumanize this. These people, so many of them are just looking for a break, an opportunity to get back into the workforce, an opportunity to contribute, but they can't because there's that barrier.

Again, that's why I'm passionate about it, as I'm sure you can tell, because I see it. I live it. I feel it. I know these people. I know these men and women. They come into my office. We bring them in. We give them a sandwich. We give them a smile, a hug, some fellowship. These men and women simply need a break. That's why I want this committee to examine exactly what happened, why it happened and what we can do as a government to reverse this wrong.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I have just over half a minute left, so if you have any thoughts, you can submit them to us later or perhaps answer through another question.

How can we best get the stories from those individuals? It's one thing to get statistics, and it's one thing to get an organizational high-level perspective, but do you have any thoughts about how we could be most effective at hearing from the individuals impacted?

I'm drawing your attention to the fact that I have 12 seconds left.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

I can speak to Saint John—Rothesay. There are champions in my riding who would certainly come forward and testify with lived experience as to what has happened and what's happening to them.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

Mr. Motz, you have seven minutes, please.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Wayne, for being here today and bringing this motion forward.

We share a lot of things in common with respect to the things that we hold dear personally, as well as those community issues that we advocate for. From working with you on housing, homelessness and some of those things, I certainly understand and appreciate your passion, and I also have that passion for my community.

From my background, I'm a firm believer in individuals being accountable for their actions. The whole purpose of our system is to rehabilitate and reintegrate them back into society. I agree that there are some things that need to be adjusted, but part of the way the system has always been set up is that they carry a record, and that record is to ensure that there's a reminder to those who may be unwary that this individual had a record.

I'm confused. Other than in your riding, Wayne, with a select group of individuals...that this is as pressing of an issue...because there are other things that are big.

Can you help me understand that a little differently?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Sure. Again, I certainly have a lot of respect for you, Glen. We worked together on the housing file and some other files, and I know that you're also very much on the ground in your riding. I'm also very glad to hear that you think there could be some changes. I'm encouraged by that.

I think that I offer a unique perspective on this because my office is so connected and so much on the ground. I certainly don't have a criminal justice background like you do, but with respect, I feel at times there's this feeling out there that these people should carry that burden with them and that they really never will truly be free. That's something I have a hard time with.

If my office in Saint John—Rothesay is seeing what I see about these wonderful human beings who have simply made a mistake.... I refer to the case of the diapers, or I can cite other cases of a shoplifting mistake or what have you, and because of that mistake, people can't shake it.

Again, you weren't here, and I wasn't here at that point, but the cost of obtaining a record suspension—I'd like to say a pardon—basically quadrupled. I believe it was $50, and then it went to $150 and then it went to $631.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

In this study, though, Wayne, have you checked with the Parole Board to find out what is the cost to them? There's a physical cost to someone getting a record suspension. There's not an arbitrary fee, necessarily, but there's an actual manpower cost. Have you inquired with them in order to determine exactly what that's been calculated to be?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Look, in fairness, Glen, we have talked with the Parole Board. I would generalize and say that they're extremely supportive of what I'm moving forward. I would argue that there's a cost to not doing it.

With the greatest respect, I'm on committees too, and I'm always hearing “What about the cost of this?” and “What about the cost of that?” In this case, to your point, I don't have that economic model here right now, but there's a multiplier effect. There's no question that there's a multiplier effect of somebody being on the system, being on social assistance, mental illness costs, ambulance costs, police costs. There is a cost to that—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

I appreciate that. I completely agree that there are those in our society who absolutely, in order to get ahead, need a hand to get them up. I agree with that. But this may not be the thing.

I guess this is the part that will be a challenge: Do you think the Canadian taxpayer would believe that they should subsidize the actual cost to this? Do you think it's fair to the taxpayer that they should be subsidizing this cost?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

I do. I believe—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Being that you believe that, is there a range of the type of offences that you think should be different from what they are now? Like, what does that eligibility look like to you?