Evidence of meeting #134 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cost.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB
Right. Again, these are stats from the Parole Board of Canada. I did a double-take when I looked at them, too. Ninety-six per cent of those who are pardoned never reoffend. Think about that number, 96%. They just need that opportunity.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Do you know if there are any stats, Wayne, prior to the three to five and five to ten? Has there been any benefit by extending the time period?
We could bring the Parole Board in and ask them those questions.
Liberal
Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB
What I have here, and I apologize for this. The numbers I have are again, in 2011, the number was 29,829, and in 2015, the number was 12,743. That's a staggering drop in pardon applications. For these people, poverty built a wall around them, and now they're stuck.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
YWCA Canada came in to see me today, and they talked about one of the women they were working with who had done skills retraining. They had been working with her on a resumé. She had a job interview, but she couldn't afford the transit fare there and back, and that's a lot less than $631.
Liberal
Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB
Yes, we take for granted.... As I said earlier, $631, well, what's that? That's only $12 a week. Try telling that to the single mother who's at the food bank and the soup kitchen. Twelve dollars a week is a significant amount of money.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
My understanding is, with record suspensions, or pardons, whatever you want to call them, if it's a sexual offence, that's still flagged. Even if someone is going to be working with the vulnerable sector, that's still flagged when the police check is done.
Liberal
Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB
It is.
Again, I could list many examples. An employer wanted to hire this lady.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
It seems there are checks and balances now to make sure that the people who should be getting these are getting them, but there are still flags that protect public safety, which is ultimately what we want to do.
Liberal
Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB
Yes, and sometimes I bristle at the kind of narrative that's out there that this is another example of being soft on crime. My assistant always writes this down, but again, to be tough on crime, you also need to be tough on poverty.
This is a perfect example of how we can make an impact on those living in poverty, a significant impact. That's what we want to do, not just as a government, but as federal politicians. We want to help those who need that help, who don't have that voice. This is the way we can do it.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
You're good.
Mr. Motz, just because I'm a nice guy, I'm looking at giving you three minutes.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Wayne, I know there's no arguing with the numbers that in 2011 the pardon applications or record suspensions were this, or whatever they were before—
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
What I'm getting at is to suggest that the 96% of the people who have received the pardon don't reoffend. I know hundreds of individuals over the course of years—maybe even more than that—who have committed an offence, and it was, as you say, an honest mistake. They probably will never commit an offence again, but to suggest that when they get a pardon, they're never going to reoffend, that's like a causation.
The issue is, if you're going to apply for a pardon or record suspension, you know you don't qualify if you continue to offend. Right? It's that simple. If you offend, you don't qualify for a record suspension.
I know what you're saying, but it's important to recognize that those who are clean don't commit another criminal offence. Absolutely, if it's the right offence, they should be eligible for a record suspension in whatever manner is appropriate for the offence and for whatever legislation is in place on the day.
It's important to recognize, too, they're not going to commit another offence, because it was a mistake of the past.
Liberal
Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB
Again, I'm learning as I go here, but what was the thought behind changing it by taking “pardon” out and putting “record suspension” in? Why?
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
I wasn't here then. I don't know. I can't answer that.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
If I could have one minute, Chair, it's amazing, though, the number of organizations with which I have had interaction in my previous career, and now in this, where the feeling is that the requirement for government is that we're responsible to ensure the legislation is in place, and the responsibility of government is to ensure that the public—the vulnerable public, all public—is not at risk from those who might reoffend.
Sometimes, even though they get a pardon, certain offences are not, right...? You're going to have vulnerable sector checks. Even your pardons are going to be checked. The public expects a system to be in place that protects them from those who may receive a pardon and still be a risk.
Liberal
Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB
Sure. I hear you on that. I do, though, to be transparent, sometimes bristle at this. I'm moving this motion, but we want to do this because there's that kind of “more criminals back on the street” sentiment and things like that. Again, I think I come at it like you do, too, Glen, from a different perspective at times, because it's not dehumanized for me. I see these people and I know that so many of them are just looking for that opportunity. For 631 bucks, we can give them that opportunity.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Motz.
I think you've stretched my envelope as far as it's going to go, Mr. Eglinski.
