Evidence of meeting #41 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-22.
A recording is available from Parliament.
November 3rd, 2016 / 3:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.)) Liberal Rob Oliphant
Welcome, everyone.
I call this meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security to order. This is our 41st meeting, and pursuant to the order of reference from October 4, we are considering Bill C-22, An Act to establish the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians and to make consequential amendments to certain Acts.
We welcome our guests as witnesses today, Mr. Wark and Mr. Atkey.
I understand Mr. Miller has a point he'd like to raise first.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
Yes, and I'll be very brief, Mr. Chair.
At the last meeting the chair said, “Thank you, Mr. Miller. I would have given you more time if you'd brought some international prizewinning ice cream from your riding”, so there it is.
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Voices
Oh, oh!
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Conservative
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Conservative
Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
We can put it back on ice until the meeting's over.
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
We'll put it on ice and we'll have it in the back. We will put the name “Chapman's” in the record.
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Voices
Oh, oh!
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Conservative
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Voices
Oh, oh!
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Voices
Oh, oh!
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A voice
It's not $1,500 worth.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
That's five dollars of the best ice cream there is.
3:30 p.m.
Conservative
3:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
Welcome to the most effective and magnanimous and interesting committee on Parliament Hill.
We're going to begin with our witnesses. I'm going to suggest we start with Dr. Wark. You have 10 minutes, and then we'll have Professor Atkey.
3:30 p.m.
Wesley Wark Visiting Professor, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Chairman, members of the committee, it's a great pleasure to have the chance to give testimony on Bill C-22, An Act to establish the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians .
I'd like to begin by making some brief contextual remarks about the legislation. Genuine parliamentary capacity to scrutinize intelligence and security has been a long-time coming in Canada. Having such a body was first proposed by the McDonald commission over 30 years ago, but was rejected by a special Senate committee established to review the commission's report and recommendations. Instead, we got a different accountability mechanism back then, the Security Intelligence Review Committee, established with the CSIS Act in 1984.
Despite various efforts to bring forward legislation in subsequent years, including several attempts in recent years, Bill C-22 marks the first time that a legislative proposal supported by the government has come to a standing committee for hearings.
Much wasted time has passed and much has changed in the intervening years. The necessity for a committee of parliamentarians of the kind envisaged by Bill C-22 is irrefutable, in my view. We have been left behind by the efforts of our allies in legislative branch scrutiny. The Canadian security and intelligence community, which will be the subject of the reviews conducted by the proposed committee, has undergone tremendous change, in particular since the 9/11 attacks, and now benefits from much greater resources, capacity, and power than it has ever experienced in Canadian history.
With that increase in power comes a corresponding increase in the need for strategic level scrutiny of the activities of the security and intelligence community as a whole and a crying need for real parliamentary capacity. In addition, the Canadian public is much more attuned to security and intelligence issues than in the past and there is a much higher expectation in the public domain for the delivery of accountability, transparency, and adequate public knowledge.
I fully support Bill C-22. I think it represents a necessary and timely experiment in parliamentary democracy and activism. I give full credit to the Liberal government for seeing the importance of parliamentary scrutiny of security and intelligence and for making this a centrepiece of its response to the previous government's anti-terrorism legislation, Bill C-51, and for making it a promise in their election platform.
I don't think Bill C-22 is perfect, but Parliament will have to decide how significant the gaps might be between a perfect scheme and something good enough for a start-up. If we are honest, this is what Bill C-22 represents, a start-up. It's the beginning of a delayed experiment in parliamentary scrutiny, which requires, of course, robust legislation, but which will also be dependent on many other factors and will require a period of maturation before it can become fully effective.
This has been the experience of the U.K.'s Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament, on which the Canadian legislation is clearly based. The U.K. committee was created in 1994, has over 20 years of experience, and was granted revised powers and procedures in legislation in 2013.
The success of the proposed national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians will depend, beyond robust legislation, on many factors, including strong membership, reflecting the stature of the committee, which makes it a highly desirable place for MPs and senators to aspire to a seat around the table; a steep learning curve about the complex domestic and international dimensions of intelligence activities; the trust of key agencies in the security and intelligence community; earned legitimacy in Parliament; and last but not least, and perhaps most important of all, public legitimacy, twinned with an understanding that one of the key roles of the a national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians is to build and sustain public understanding of the role and challenges of intelligence and security endeavours in a democracy.
It seems to me that these are the challenges ahead for the committee, but to meet them the committee will need the right legislative tools.
In terms of having the right legislative tools, Bill C-22 has to find what I would call a “sweet spot” between committee access to secrets and the protection of secrets. Finding this sweet spot is the challenge before you in your study of this legislation. That sweet spot can be examined under five headings, all of which are core elements of Bill C-22: membership, mandate, powers, resources, and protection against leaks.
In the time remaining, I propose to make some short remarks about the strengths and weaknesses of Bill C-22, as it currently stands, under those five headings.
First of all, I will discuss membership. My plea to the committee would be not to too hung up on membership, though I imagine you might well do that. The key thing is having good members and instilling a culture of non-partisanship. How you arrive at those members is something that you'll have to determine. It's certainly the case that the Canadian proposal in Bill C-22 falls a little behind the revised procedures currently being used by the U.K. Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament, but I hope this doesn't become the overweening focus of the committee's deliberations.
Mandate is the second issue.
The mandate proposed for Bill C-22 is very broad, and that's good, but it comes with challenges. There are core agencies of the security and intelligence community that will preoccupy the committee and take up almost all of its time. I would prefer to see these core agencies named, as is the case with the legislation for the U.K. intelligence and security committee.
You can of course maintain the broad mandate while still naming the key agencies that are going to be the subject of your work, by adding an additional clause indicating that other government departments and agencies would be under the purview of the committee as required and as it pursues its mandate. I think, however, that it's critical to name those core agencies, in part to assist the committee in coming up with a useful work plan and in part to help the public understand what its expectations around the reporting of this committee will be.
I would also add under mandate that it would be important to include something that does not currently fall under the mandate, which is a direct reference to operations. By operations I mean past operations. This area should be listed as part of the mandate of the committee, as is the current U.K. practice.
I'm going to skip over powers for a minute and turn to resources. The Bill C-22 provisions for a secretariat are, I believe, excellent. I had the opportunity to talk to the visiting intelligence and security committee delegation that travelled to Ottawa recently, and this was one of the things they commented on. They clearly felt some degree of jealousy about the explicit provisions for resources for a secretariat and for the leadership of that secretariat. This is one of the strongest pieces of the Bill C-22 legislation. I hope it will be supported and sustained.
Protection against leaks is a question of finding the sweet spot between access to secrets and protection against the inadvertent or deliberate revealing of secrets. The measures that are provided in Bill C-22 to protect against leaks are clearly overwrought; they go beyond the kinds of measures that were proposed in previous versions of draft legislation.
They're overwrought in imposing a security clearance requirement on members. I say “overwrought” in that regard because it is very likely that members of the national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians would not be cleared to the highest levels, in part because I can't quite imagine MPs and senators wishing to undergo polygraph examination.
I also think it's completely unnecessary. All it really needs is what was proposed in many versions of previous legislation, which is reliance on an oath of secrecy as the principal protection required, with an assumption of trust with regard to the behaviour of MPs and senators sitting on the committee. A properly administered oath of secrecy, surrounded by the kinds of protections you'll need with regard to documents and document handling that would be enforced by the secretariat is in my view sufficient. From my perspective, I think the government overplayed its hand here.
That leads me to the final point, which is about powers. I suspect this will be one of the most contentious issues you'll have to address in this committee. Again, I would urge you to think about these powers in the context of that sweet spot between access to secrets on the part of the committee and protecting legitimate secrets held by the government and provided to the government, possibly by many of our allied partners.
There are many complicated provisions contained in Bill C-22 with respect to access to records and in respect to reporting. I'm not going to run through these in detail. The point I would simply like to make is that in comparison with the U.K. legislation, which I think could usefully be our guide here, the legislation in Bill C-22 goes a little further than necessary. It's too complex and can be usefully simplified around the protection of intelligence sources and methods and around any kind of divulgence that might impact upon the proper working of intelligence and security agencies.
A lot of the other kinds of clauses and exemptions in terms of access to reports or the nature of reporting that could be done I think are frankly unnecessary. I think it could be very helpful in terms of the committee's work, Parliament's understanding of its work, the public's understanding of its work, and removing any suspicions about excessive executive control over this committee if all of those efforts to corral access and reporting could be vastly simplified.
One thing, in particular, that I want to draw the committee's attention to is to be careful about including in C-22 an exemption to access and reporting that refers directly to operational information. That is a reference to the Security of Information Act, and the definition of operational information in the Security of Information Act, which was passed as part of the Anti-terrorism Act in 2001, is extremely broad and, if it were read literally, could really bring the work of the committee to a halt. My main message is that this part of C-22 could be usefully and practically simplified.
Just by way of quick conclusion, there are two things I would encourage the committee to do as it scrutinizes C-22. First, seek genuine parliamentary consensus on an acceptable form of legislation, and practice bipartisanship as you do so. It seems there is a good amount of bipartisanship already, in terms of the sharing of ice cream going on, so this is a good sign.
I say this because consensus and bipartisanship are going to be the working ethic of the committee that is established. It would be a good place to start, to think about these things in this committee.
Second, keep in mind that the proposed national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians is a start-up and will be reviewed after five years, and accept that there is no perfect formula for balancing secrecy requirements and access requirements. Pease don't spin your wheels too much on that.
I'll end with a quote. As General William “Wild Bill” Donovan was fond of saying during his leadership of the Office of Strategic Services in World War II, “Perfect is the enemy of the good.”
Thank you.
3:45 p.m.
Ron Atkey Adjunct Professor, Osgoode Hall Law School, York University, As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. I thank all of you for the invitation to appear to assist your study of Bill C-22.
Like my friend Wesley Wark, I believe this represents a major and welcome change within our Canadian parliamentary system. I say this having been both a parliamentarian for two short terms under Liberal and Progressive Conservative governments, as well as the first chair of the Security Intelligence Review Committee in 1984-89.
It's a major change because it accepts the recommendation, as Wesley pointed out, of not only the Macdonald commission in the seventies, but also the of the Mackenzie commission in the sixties. It goes back to there, where they recommended some form of parliamentary oversight committee.
I recall that at the time Canadian governments and their security agencies were a bit hesitant at allowing elected MPs into the national security tent, because there was no assurance that they could keep security information a secret in the red-hot political environment in Ottawa. There was some concern among our allies at the time that elected members of Parliament should have access to the most secretive of all secrets, let alone have the time and inclination to monitor closely the vast array of departments and agencies with various security issues.
I must admit that when I was the first chair of SIRC, in 1984, our committee of privy councillors, and we were from different political parties, all went along with the notion that expert review of security intelligence was something that should be done only by independent persons of experience who could talk to MPs to get their views without necessarily giving them the secret information they might otherwise be interested in.
Bill C-22 represents a welcome change to that way of thinking—welcome in the sense that we saw Canada in the last three decades fall behind our parliamentary cousins in the United Kingdom and Australia in terms of accountability to Parliament, and we have now the chance to get caught up. It's welcome also in the sense that the important parliamentary debates in this century, particularly after 9/11 on Bill C-36, and after the 2014 attacks in Ottawa and Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu on Bill C-51, were overly partisan, in my opinion, and not as well informed in the absence of a committee of parliamentarians such as the one being proposed.
I have some amendments. You asked me a couple of weeks ago what I would propose, and let me suggest just a couple. Let me say at the outset I emphasize that this is a good bill and it should be passed in this session of Parliament. It will help to ensure Canadians that their elected representatives will play a key overview role in accountability for the important but dangerous powers granted to some 17 departments and agencies that relate to national security.
Is it a perfect bill? No. Are there areas where amendments can be considered to improve the bill? Yes. Will this bill fix all the problems of BillC-51 and companion legislation that have concerned many Canadians over the last 18 months? Not at all. This bill is a first good step, but it should not be an excuse for government in action on fixing Bill C-51 during the remainder of this Parliament.
First of all, I suggest amendment on ministerial veto. Have a close look at this. The possibility of the proposed committee's work being frustrated by any minister determining that the review of his or her department would be injurious to national security is overly protected and should be removed or modified.
No such veto existed when I chaired SIRC between 1984 and 1989. And yes, there were tensions from time to time with CSIS, the body we were reviewing, but matters were worked out as they are in a reasonable context of being within the security tent. To my knowledge, no security operations were compromised at the time.
The language of BillC-22 in paragraph 8(b) reflects a reluctance to have the committee of parliamentarians act as a true watchdog.
Access to information is the second of my amendments. In order to do its work, the committee is rightly given access in clause 13 to any information that is under control of the department. This is a key for any watchdog to be effective, yet there are important exceptions in clause 14, which are well understood and accepted in the security intelligence community. I accept those for the most part.
However, then comes the discretionary refusal of information in clause 16, where the minister has decided that the provision of the information would be injurious to national security or would constitute special operational information. That's the nub. This is open-ended and dangerous in my opinion. Yes, the minister must tell the committee the reasons for the open-ended refusal, and this should be considered by way of amendment. But I think other investigative work of the committee may be frustrated if this is retained in its current form.
The third area of amendments relates to prime ministerial redactions.
A broad power is given in Bill C-22, in subclause 21(5), allowing the PM to direct the committee to submit a revised report to Parliament, one that has been censored for reasons of national security, national defence, or international relations.
This is a matter that was litigated between the Arar commission and the Harper government in 2007. Here I make full disclosure that I was participating in that case, as counsel on behalf of the Arar commission. The court had to consider, in that case, some 2,000 words in dispute in the commission's final report. Justice Noel found that a half of them should be disclosed in the public interest and a half of them should remain confidential.
The directed wording of Bill C-22 would preclude this court adjudication and would give full power to the PM and his officials to censor committee reports he doesn't like, with no explanation. At the very least, I think when he directs redactions, he should have to give the committee a detailed reason for his decision in camera, as in the case with ministerial refusals of information under subclause 16(2).
Finally, I recommend some form of dispute settlement system for some of these contentious matters, whether it's paragraph 8(b), or subclauses 16(1) or 21(5), the ones that I've just mentioned. They should be subject to in camera dispute settlement in the courts.
In my experience, the nine designated judges of the Federal Court have the proper structure and experience to adjudicate balancing the need for government secrecy against the public interest in disclosure in accordance with law.
In my concluding comments with respect to general structures and powers, let me offer three observations.
I do appreciate that Bill C-22, as it stands, is an initial step for Canada in letting parliamentarians into the national security tent, and that's good. But these observations of mine are not meant to deter Parliament from proceeding promptly in this parliamentary session.
First of all is the appointment of the chair. This was raised in the debate on second reading in the House. To ensure that the committee is truly a creature of Parliament, couldn't the chair be elected by Parliament, rather than appointed by the PM?
In a majority government situation, the PM's preference would likely proceed but, remember, this is permanent legislation and there may come a day when a minority Parliament might want to elect a member of the official opposition as chair. I think you might consider the long-term implications of that.
Second is the selection of members of the committee. Consultation on selections by the Prime Minister with leaders of the opposition parties, which is provided in Bill C-22, has worked in the past when there has been genuine consultation and not simply notification. But to ensure that the system is not abused for partisan purposes, there should be ratification of all members of the committee by Parliament itself. I think that would just be a good check that you might want to build into the system.
Finally, and I hesitate to sound like a lawyer on this, while you're not going to be establishing a committee that's a court of law or an administrative tribunal acting accordingly in the judicial context, the committee of parliamentarians, in carrying out its statutory review under clause 8 of Bill C-22, may require, and should require, subpoena power to summon witnesses, compel testimony on oath or affirmation, and require the production of all necessary documents.
This may be necessary where public servants are reluctant to respond to reasonable requests by the committee, or in situations where private sector individuals have particular knowledge about a security activity being carried out by a particular department. I think you might empower your committee of parliamentarians to have these particular powers.
In conclusion, Bill C-22, in its current or amended form, represents an historic opportunity for Canada to bring accountability for security intelligence into the 21st century.
My hope is that whatever form of bill emerges from these committee proceedings, it ultimately enjoys the complete support of Parliament as a whole, both here and in the other place.
Building trust, in my experience, is a two-way street. Parliamentarians have to be prepared to put in place a review system that has the respect and support of all members working co-operatively within the security tent to ensure there is a proper balance in the system that protects Canadians, yet respects rights and freedoms.
Similarly, government departments and agencies must recognize and respect that parliamentary security review operating within appropriate boundaries is not a nuisance, and that it means, ultimately, a stronger and more accountable form of government for the benefit of all Canadians.
I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
Thank you.
You kept to the time you had perfectly.
We will start with Mr. Di Iorio for seven minutes.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Atkey, Mr. Wark, my thanks for your remarks. The views you have expressed about the content of the bill and the comments you made about the possibility of improving it are very well noted.
I would like you to clarify one point, but first I have a question for Mr. Atkey. I will ask it in French and in English.
