Evidence of meeting #16 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bragdon.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Motz.
I don't know who the Liberal questioner is for the next five minutes.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Good afternoon. I'd also like to thank you for being with us.
My question is for Ms. Naidoo.
You talked about the T.O.R.I. program, or the Texas Offenders Reentry Initiative. In an ideal world, we'd like to promote the reintegration of offenders to increase their presence in society, but we know quite well that human beings will always be human beings and that there is always a lot of uncertainty and vulnerability.
How will it be possible to control and manage this in the community and with organizations that will be needed in order to have a functional system?
5:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Texas Offenders Reentry Initiative
I believe that the cross-sector relationship is what's important. I think that in order for us to get our arms around these issues, it doesn't just take social workers; it takes the different departments that make up the criminal justice system. I believe that you have to take into account that parole and probation come from an authoritative background. Their relationship with the returning citizen is very different from that of a counsellor or a social worker. That level of trust between the community and the returning citizen has to be garnered in order for this to be productive, in order for this to be successful.
For the success of our relationships cross-sector, there has to be trust between us and the other high-level professionals who are involved in this. Also, there has to be trust between the ex-offender and the criminal justice appointees.
Did that answer the question?
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Yes. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I'll be offering the rest of my time to Pam.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Mr. Bragdon, I can't thank you enough for bringing this bill forward. You mentioned having visited prison. I actually think that all MPs should be required to go to prison in order to do their jobs—
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
—because you do get a different perspective.
I've visited quite a few. When I went to Buffalo Sage Wellness House, one of the women there talked about how it was the first time in her life she was able to heal and not just survive. We know that recidivism rates are lower for those coming out of healing lodges. We know that indigenous people are the fastest-growing prison population. Indigenous women, in particular, are up 70% to 80% out in the Prairies.
How important is bringing that indigenous perspective to the healing process when we're talking about people who are getting out of prison?
Ms. Latimer, you could start on that. If I have time, Mr. Bragdon, I'd love to hear from you on that as well.
5:35 p.m.
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
It's very important that whatever intervention is being provided resonates well with the individual who is receiving it. If culturally relevant healing approaches work, there should be more of them. We should be testing this to see what works for people.
There are some clear indications where there's a disjuncture between the preparation for reintegration and a certain group's recidivism rates. For example, Black prisoners' trajectory into lower levels of custody is slower, and their release on parole is slower, but frankly, their recidivism rates are better than those of other groups, so there's something wrong with the risk calculation tools associated with certain groups.
We need to be very mindful of that, and we really need to treat everybody's potential for overcoming their past as an individual pursuit and make available to them whatever tools and paths would be helpful.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Mr. Bragdon, Ms. Damoff has run out of time, but since you're the mover and a colleague, do you have anything else to add? The question was for you as well.
We seem to have lost Mr. Bragdon.
I guess we're on to royal assent, then.
Ms. Michaud, you have five minutes.
5:35 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It's a little annoying because I had some questions for Mr. Bragdon. I'm going to hear from the other witnesses anyway.
I see that Mr. Bragdon is back.
First of all, I wanted to thank him for introducing his bill. Recent cases, such as that of Eustachio Gallese and Marylène Lévesque, show that there are cases of recidivism in society and that the mechanisms that already exist fail to protect the population. It is therefore important to stop there. Moreover, the report that we were able to study with the Correctional Investigator of Canada also shows that there are clearly flaws in the way the federal government manages the reintegration of inmates into society.
Before we get to the heart of the matter, since the bill raises some questions, I'd like to hear from Mr. Bragdon and the other witnesses about mandatory minimum sentences.
Mr. Bragdon, I'm reading what you pointed out in the preamble of the bill:
Whereas nearly one in four people who have been incarcerated reoffend within two years of their release;
Some people think that imprisonment only makes behaviours worse for some individuals who would be at risk of recidivism. So I'd like to know what you think about mandatory minimum sentences.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Thank you very much for your kind words, Ms. Michaud.
In regard to sentencing and on the front end, obviously anything we can do to create an environment that prevents disadvantaged young people at risk—youth and others—from making choices that will lead in the direction that could eventually lead to incarceration, that is always a worthwhile investment of time and resources and supports. Those supports can't be overstated. It's critical.
This bill in particular addresses the period post time served. It's the plan for when someone has completed serving their time and for how we can best make sure they don't go back into the system upon having served time. There obviously can and should be some great work done on the front end, and I commend efforts to make sure we are preventing people from going into the system, but this is to address that revolving door on the back end.
The primary emphasis is, what are the best working models out there that we can look at and try to emulate here? Which ones are doing great work here in Canada that we can partner with and maybe contextualize across the board to keep bringing those rates of recidivism down so that revolving door stops? That's really the approach we're emphasizing. This bill is really about the period post time served.
5:40 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Mr. Nicholas, would you like to add anything?
5:40 p.m.
Endowed Chair in Native Studies, St. Thomas University, As an Individual
Yes, I think you ask a very good question, because there's always a concern in a community about what happens when somebody is out on the street and within another month they're in violation of another condition.
I think what's absent in our system is indigenous spirituality. I think that is very important for our people, because for them to be a complete person, they have to be in tune with their own spiritual values. Often, institutions have prohibited them from having a pipe or a smudging ceremony because fire regulations say something may burn down.
For our people, spirituality is extremely important, and it involves the role of the elders, both male and female. I think the institutions have to be welcoming of these people so they can follow up with them upon their release. To me, that is the key ingredient that has been missing in the criminal justice system.
5:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Texas Offenders Reentry Initiative
If I can add one more thing, in Texas it costs $65 a day to incarcerate. It costs the T.O.R.I. program less than $4 a day to rehabilitate. As I mentioned earlier, one in 32 Americans is involved in the criminal justice system, so granted that Canada has a 35% recidivism rate, we have a 65% recidivism rate. You can fast-forward to see that if you don't get your arms around the issue, it can drastically increase over time.
To Mr. Bragdon's point, I know this is for aftercare, returning citizens, but there are studies with the Aspen Institute that have talked about how they are able to measure how many prisons to build by third graders' test scores. We have initiatives around stopping the pipeline to prison. If you're talking about prevention work, there are some really excellent studies out there for prevention, but in this recidivism reduction bill I think that looking at the best practices now points to our getting our arms around it before it gets worse.
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Ms. Michaud.
Mr. Davies, welcome to the committee. You have five minutes.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Naidoo, just to clarify, when you quote the 35% recidivism rate, is that a federal figure for Canada or is that a comprehensive figure? As you know, it's those with sentences of more than two years who go into the federal system, and those with less than two years go into the provincial system. Do you know which you're referring to when you say 35%?
5:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Texas Offenders Reentry Initiative
I believe when we looked it up it was federal.
Mr. Bragdon, could you...?
5:40 p.m.
Conservative
Richard Bragdon Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Yes, I'd be glad to.
Mr. Davies, in our research we found the recidivism rate was 25% for those who will return to the federal prison system within two years. That was the metric.
The provincial recidivism rates are much higher, so I think the collaboration between the provincial and the federal would bump that number up to 35% and higher. You can see where the 35% number would definitely come in, because provincially those recidivism rates are even higher.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Thank you.
Ms. Latimer, on a scale of one to 10—one being terrible, 10 being fantastic—how would you describe the state of programs now that support inmates when they leave prison?
5:40 p.m.
Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
Some prisoners get lucky and they get into good halfway houses and they have some needed supports, but a large chunk of them do not. They're coming out of statutory release without necessarily having preparatory programs in the prisons and without necessarily having a very good reintegration strategy. Too many of them are released into homeless shelters, which is very bad, just in terms of being so different from prison culture and so conducive to their getting in trouble with drugs and a variety of other things.
A ton of work is left to be done. I don't want to undermine my very good co-workers at John Howard, who do great work, but overall we're probably at about five. There's lots of scope for improving.
