Public Safety Committee on June 16th, 2021

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

Two minutes is too short for this, but thank you to all three witnesses. Mr. Fogel from the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs, and Mr. Farooq and Ms. Omer from the National Council of Canadian Muslims, thanks for being with us and helping us through this very difficult conversation.

I'm going to ask a question that a couple of people attempted to ask and ran out of time, which is about balancing civil liberties and keeping Canadians safe, particularly when it comes to the Internet.

Mr. Fogel, I think it was you who said that we need new tools when it comes to regulating the Internet. I don't know if you were talking about criminal laws or civil remedies. Perhaps you could expand on that. What would civil remedies look like as far as that goes?

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

Thank you for the question.

I'll try to be really brief over here. It's a challenge for me.

I think one of the takeaways of this whole discussion is that to really address this effectively you need a whole-of-government approach. You have sister committees in Parliament that are looking at some of these questions. Online hate is something that the anti-racism secretariat has been focusing on a lot and providing some resources for stakeholders, such as the NCCM and us, to be able to explore remedies. Social media platforms have been brought in and not quite coerced, but encouraged, to take some ownership and to provide some of the solutions.

I don't know what all of the instruments will be. I know that for them to be effective it requires the buy-in from all of the stakeholders. That means government, communities and social service providers.

We have to distinguish between two groups. There are the vast bulk of Canadians who may be ignorant and insensitive to the impact of social media posts. They need to be educated. Then there are the marginal ones who have to be chased into the corner or prosecuted or somehow defanged, so that they don't constitute an ongoing threat.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Van Popta.

Madam Damoff, you have two minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

We talked about listing terrorist organizations. As you both know, it wasn't very long ago—prior to 2019—that no white supremacist organizations were listed and now there are six.

We have also talked a lot about the lone wolf and how listing those organizations, while incredibly important, doesn't deal with the young people we're seeing—like in the Quebec mosque and in London—who are being radicalized online. We've talked about this a lot, but how do we deal with the online radicalization of these individuals?

Maybe Mr. Fogel you could start first and then Mr. Farooq.

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

I'm not by any means an expert in this area, but I do know this: Social media companies have the most sophisticated algorithms that exist. They do have the capacity to track, to monitor, to isolate and to pull out words, phrases and context. It's scary how much they're able to do. If there's the will to do it, there's the technological capacity to do. It seems to me that the first order of business is to try and weed out all of those toxic sites, those conversations, those chat rooms and so forth, so that the individual has far-reduced options in terms of gravitating towards things that are toxic and hateful.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, that's the end of your two minutes.

With that, we will turn to Madame Michaud for a minute, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Since we have Mr. Farooq back, I'm going to ask him the same question I asked Mr. Fogel earlier.

The figures capturing hate crimes, as reported by the Quebec City police force and even Statistics Canada, are not accurate. Only a third of hate crimes are reported or documented as hate incidents.

Why do you think that is? Is it merely a mistake?

Mr. Fogel had some interesting things to say about it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You don't have one minute. You have 10 seconds, but please go ahead.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I'm sorry.

[Mustafa Farooq]

Statistics Canada itself identifies that one of the major gaps in the numbers is from a lack of reporting. I can tell you that one of the major gaps in our community doesn't come from a lack of literacy. She alluded to this. Oftentimes it comes from the fact that our communities have historically had unfortunate dealings when it comes to law enforcement.

I have been in conversations with police agencies across countries, including with hate crime units, where people will call to report a hate crime and will be discouraged from reporting, or their complaint will not be taken seriously at all. That's simply a reality that's happened too many times for us to fully canvass. I can tell you that when the Wolves of Odin visited Al Rashid Mosque, Canada's oldest mosque, no charges were brought despite their clear stalking, intimidation and trespassing.

This is the kind of reason that people then tire of calling the police, because they call and they call, and things are not necessarily dealt with. A man tied a noose in an Edmonton LRT station in front of a hijabi Canadian women and said “This is for you” and started singing the Canadian national anthem. No charges were brought.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay, I'm going to leave it there, I apologize.

Mr. Harris, you have one minute.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I believe we have to be concerned about safety first. We can't cover.... These are not the only targets, but do each of the witnesses believe that the security infrastructure program ought to be enhanced and that the security rebate program, as Mr. Fogel mentioned, should be put in place to the extent that every mosque and synagogue in Canada that desires to have the security it needs will have access to that and have the support to do that?

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

My short answer is yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We like short answers.

[Mustafa Farooq]

My short answer is yes; they should be able to have the resource to do that, but it also breaks my heart that we have to have this conversation. Good fences don't make good neighbours.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

I believe Mr. Motz is up next, having given up his flirtation with the Liberal Party.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Yes, thank you.

How much time do I have, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have two minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Farooq, I want both of you to comment on this, but I address this initially to you specifically. You wrote an article recently that you said “Anti-semitism and Islamophobia are two sides of the same coin”. Can you both comment on that and why you see it that way?

[Mustafa Farooq]

Sure, I'll speak to it quickly. I think that, as I saw yesterday, there was a swastika painted on a mosque in Edmonton. There is a confluence in the way that white supremacists target Canadian Muslim and Canadian Jewish communities. The O9A, the white supremacist organization linked to the killing at the IMO, is a neo-Nazi Satanist group where folks involved in it worship Hitler. This is the kind of thing we are dealing with, and that's why Canadian Muslims and Canadian Jews are united among many other racialized and minority groups on the need to stamp out dangerous, violent, white supremacist groups and the threats that our communities are facing jointly.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Fogel, just a yes or no: Do you agree with that sentiment?

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

Overall, yes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you. That gives me time to move on to my next question.

I know recently the court struck down consecutive sentences as unconstitutional. The case involved the Quebec mosque shooting. He was given a 40-year sentence, but it was reduced to 25 years, and he had killed six people.

To my knowledge, the government hasn't appealed this decision.

Does giving longer sentences to this kind of horrific, unthinkable crime send a message, and does it say that we don't accept it? Should this be appealed, and should these unforgivable crimes be given consecutive sentences and these sentences be upheld?

The question is for both of you. Please respond very briefly.

[Mustafa Farooq]

Just to make sure that the record is clear, the decision has been appealed and was granted leave at the Supreme Court of Canada.