Public Safety Committee on Nov. 16th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Let me bring to order the the sixth meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

I apologize to our witnesses for this 40-minute delay.

I propose, colleagues, that we give some extension of time to them. They made some considerable effort to be here, and I think we should honour their effort to be here to tell us what they are concerned about with respect to systemic racism in policing in Canada.

I will also mention that there is a subcommittee report to be presented. I'll propose doing that towards the end of the meeting.

With that, I will invite Professor Roach, faculty of law, University of Toronto, to speak; along with Melanie Omeniho, president, Women of the Métis Nation.

I'll ask them to speak for seven minutes in the order they are listed on the notice of meeting.

Professor Roach, you have seven minutes, please.

[Professor Kent Roach, Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. McKay, and thank you for inviting me.

I'm going to make seven concrete proposals to address systemic racism in policing.

First, collect and publicize race-based data. Although we know that the problem of systemic racism has been with us for a long time, we need statistics to measure whether it is getting better or worse in terms of both those accused of crime and crime victims. The RCMP especially should work with Statistics Canada to collect and publicize data.

Second, Parliament should regulate police practices. Parliament has, in the last 30 years, largely left this to the courts. In the U.K., Parliament proactively regulates police conduct and then ties that to the collection of statistics. In the U.K., for example, you know each year how many stops and searches have been made by police officers and who has been subject to stop and search.

Third, I would change the law of self-defence and use-of-force policies. Indigenous and racialized people and people with mental health issues are overrepresented among those killed and injured by the police. In 2012, Parliament liberalized the law of self-defence so that on paper it is broader than section 25 relating to police use of force. Parliament should make clear that reasonable self-defence cannot be based on racist fears, even if those are genuinely and subjectively held. We also need to revisit not only police use of force but also tactics and de-escalation.

Fourth, we should link policing with other social services and also make self-administered indigenous police agencies a priority and an essential service. We are asking the police to deal with intergenerational trauma, addictions and mental health issues. They should be required to work with other public and community agencies with more expertise and less coercive force. The number of indigenous police services has declined from 58 in 1992 to 36, whereas the number should be heading in the opposite direction. Such police services need resources and the freedom to work with others in the community, and hopefully to take over policing from the RCMP, OPP and the Sûreté.

Fifth, we must improve governance inside and outside of the RCMP. The seven-person Yukon Police Council, which has three first nations members and is chaired by the deputy minister of justice, is a model that you should look at closely. The RCMP, especially in its contract policing role, can no longer rely on top-down governance from a very busy Minister of Public Safety through to the commissioner. For example, Surrey is gaining much more local control over policing by opting out of contract policing. We need to find a way to have better local governance of the RCMP when it is involved with contract policing and also better governance of the RCMP overall. The new advisory committee is there to handle corporate risk, not to provide citizen input.

Sixth, we have to improve citizen complaints and review in general. As you know, the RCMP's review body is underfunded and underpowered as the ongoing travesty of not releasing the report on the RCMP's interaction with Colten Boushie's family illustrates. I really hope the RCMP's result is not released on a Friday afternoon or on a busy day. The RCMP act needs a fundamental rethink, and if that is not possible, then the federal agency should get out of the way and let the provincial agencies assume responsibility over police complaints and, as they have in many jurisdictions, assume jurisdiction over investigations.

Seventh and finally—this is probably the biggest ask—we need to abandon the paramilitary model of policing, which I believe is perhaps more entrenched in the RCMP than in any other police force. We need to move towards an educated, professional model. Police officers are educated professionals just like teachers, nurses and lawyers. They require continuous learning, hiring, specialization and easier licence suspension.

Right now we have a quasi-criminal disciplinary process. I fear that with the unionization of the RCMP, this will only become a more difficult instrument. Rightly, the police are educated professionals. They are paid as educated professionals, but they should also be subject to licence suspension just like teachers and lawyers are.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

President Omeniho, you have seven minutes, please.

[Melanie Omeniho, President, Women of the Métis Nation - Les Femmes Michif Otipemisiwak]

Thank you.

I represent the Métis Nation, one of the three distinct indigenous peoples in Canada. We have our own history, customs, laws, language, culture and tradition. Métis women are vibrant, strong, resilient and resourceful, and are the backbone of the Métis Nation. Les Femmes Michif Otipemisiwak, the organization I represent, is the voice of Métis women in Canada and across the homeland, which is Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia.

I'd like to remind the committee that today is a Métis day. It's the 135th anniversary of the hanging of Louis Riel , and it's today we honour. I'm honoured to be here today to present to you on this issue.

Discrimination is created and reinforced through government policies and practices. Canada has a long history of policies and practices that have institutionalized racism toward Métis women, girls and gender-diverse people. While the current government is working towards reconciliation, many discriminatory policies and practices still exist today and have not been addressed yet.

From 2001 to 2004, the Correctional Service of Canada released a series of research reports examining Métis men and women incarcerated in federal facilities in British Columbia and the prairie region.

As part of these studies, researchers surveyed the childhood and family experiences of offenders growing up. Most Métis respondents reported experiencing or witnessing violence and substance abuse in their homes and in their communities growing up. Most Métis respondents reported having family members involved in crime while they were growing up. Métis women continue to be one of the most at-risk groups in Canada for issues related to violence and continue to experience these conflict issues while also facing discrimination from police services.

For many Métis women, the circumstances leading to their involvement in the criminal justice system is the result of conflicting set of collective and individualized life circumstances, marked with systemic discrimination, silence and poverty.

Systemic racism in policing continues to exist because of the legislation, racism and policing practices that fail to recognize the full impact of the biases against Métis women.

One of the police practices that directly targets Métis men and women is carding. It has been proven by a multitude of studies that this practice targets racialized and marginalized communities disproportionately. The issue goes beyond carding though. The true reason is that Métis women are treated differently from other women within the system, and I continually hear how Métis women were targeted by police in many instances.

In their interactions with policing, Métis women are seen as a blemish on our society rather than a vibrant contributor to their nation and to who they are in their families and communities.

Police services in Canada refuse to recognize racial bias and racism as a problem in their practices and policies, and police are not required to record racial data in their reports, making it even more difficult for indigenous people and advocates to push for change within policing practices.

A complete re-education of the entire police system is required. This training must go beyond a tick box of cross-cultural training, but must cause the system and participants to fully examine their biases, both overt and unconscious.

Police services must develop a best practice protocol for their enforcement response to missing persons reports of Métis people, including steps that police should take upon receiving a missing persons report for any Métis person.

Along with the 62 calls for miskotahâ and our Métis perspectives in the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls report, the national inquiry had the following three recommendations specific to Métis people and policing:

17.12 We call upon police services to build partnerships with Métis communities, organizations, and people to ensure culturally safe access to police services.

17.13 We call upon police services to engage in education about the unique history and needs of [the] Métis communit[y].

17.14 We call upon police services to establish better communication with Métis communities and populations through representative advisory boards that involve Métis communities and address their needs.

Policing that builds trust with Métis communities is versed in Métis culture, is responsive to the distinct needs of Métis individuals, and is able to protect and meet the vulnerable Métis victims, which is so badly needed. Métis-specific policing holds the potential to address under-reporting, a particularly potent issue for Métis women; to protect Métis communities; and to reduce Métis overrepresentation in crime and victimization.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

President Omeniho, could you wind it up, please? We are close to seven minutes.

[Melanie Omeniho]

I just want to finish by saying that many of our women reported to us when we were working on the missing and murdered indigenous women and girls profile that many of them ended up being victims of police services as well, so they never felt safe accessing police when they were victims of violence themselves. Changing policing and how we do business is a very important part of what we want to see done.

I thank you for this opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

I don't wish to interrupt people in the middle of their presentations because they work very hard on them and it doesn't work. We are challenged with time.

With that, I'm going to ask that the questioning round begin.

I have Ms. Stubbs, Mr. Anandasangaree, Madame Michaud and Mr. Harris for six minutes each.

Madam Stubbs, you have six minutes, please.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate and thank both of the witnesses for being here. I certainly wish—and I'm sure other members agree—that we had more time with you.

I just have a couple of questions, primarily for Mr. Roach.

I note that in a joint article on June 17, you said that RCMP independence should be defined in the RCMP Act. I just want to invite you to expand a little bit more on that and on the details.

Also, attached to that is the Brown report's recommendation of an independent oversight and complaints review commission, independent from the RCMP commissioner and the minister. Could you also expand on the concept of having an independent oversight and complaints review commission, why it is important, what the key components are and what the impact is?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

Thank you very much, Ms. Stubbs.

Defining police independence, I think, is important because, frankly, there's a degree of—how can I put this nicely—reticence for a minister to direct or send directives to the RCMP. Police independence has sometimes been overinflated to incorporate all kinds of operational independence, where I think the minister really should take more responsibility and issue public directives.

For the research I'm doing right now, I have submitted an access to information request for all ministerial directives to the RCMP. I have heard nothing for over three months. To me, all of these directives, minus any sensitive information, should be readily posted on the web.

With regard to police independence, we don't want the minister telling the RCMP to investigate Mr. X but not to investigate Mr. Y—or charge. However, with everything else, things like “Mr. Big” operations, which are a litigation magnet, I don't see any reason why the minister cannot say that from now on we're not going to do them, or we're only going to do them in these ways. I believe in democratic policing.

As for the Brown report, we need to think not just about oversight. I've already said that the existing RCMP complaints body is under-resourced and underpowered. It has no power to impose any sort of remedy, and frankly, most law faculties have three or four times the budget that it has. The people there are trying their best, but they're having to deal with or supervise complaints from coast to coast to coast.

I also think that we need a real police board for the RCMP. I think society now is more complex, and this idea that there's the minister here and the commissioner there and that somehow it all works out with the provinces and territories, I don't think is sufficient.

I also think we need to have the RCMP work with other parts of the federal government—Health, Indigenous Affairs and so on—to take a more whole-of-government approach to safety and security.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about two minutes, Madam Stubbs.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I appreciate your comments. I also note your previous recommendations about the importance of civilian oversight and the democratization of the RCMP, as you touched on here. I think it's important in this context, because I note that the Prime Minister, the public safety minister, the justice minister, other members of this government, have said there is systemic racism in the RCMP. That's an extremely serious concern.

I happen to have a very close relative who has been a detachment assistant for more than four years. I know many front-line, dedicated officers and support staff who are good, and they're extremely frustrated. There are bad apples, as there are in every institution, and acts of racism must be stamped out and individuals who are racist must face full consequences.

However, it seems to me that if the Prime Minister and these ministers have made this indictment—and it looks like they might have pressured the RCMP commissioner into correcting her previous comments in saying the same thing—then where are the directives? Where is the concrete information and the facts and instructions from the minister to offer concrete solutions?

Would you like to expand on the importance of the transparency issue too, in terms of achieving outcomes and confidence in institutions among all Canadians?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's a very important question, but she has only given you about 15 seconds to answer it, so very briefly, please.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Sorry.

[Prof. Kent Roach]

Look, the RCMP has a very difficult job, and hopefully when they eventually release the Boushie report, they will come out with a plan. Every institution has to deal with institutional racism, so I don't think this should be seen as an indictment of the RCMP in particular.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Professor Roach and Ms. Stubbs.

We have Mr. Anandasangaree for six minutes, please.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and colleagues.

Thanks to both of you for being here today.

I also want to acknowledge Louis Riel Day. It's a very important day in Canada.

Professor Roach, I'm going to start with you. Hopefully, I'll get some more time.

With respect to addressing issues of systemic racism, can you give us some good examples of other police departments or agencies that have addressed it? What concrete steps, apart from the seven you've identified, should the RCMP be taking?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

Well, I think it's very important to empower racialized people within the RCMP so that there are support groups. I know that's in the Toronto Police Service and the Ottawa Police Service, where groups of racialized police officers not only can mentor but can also respond to problems that they have within the organization. That's one thing.

The second thing is that I think we need to have consultative community committees, but we also need to realize that speaking to two or three people in one community is never enough, and we need to have town hall meetings. I think that in some cases the commissioner needs to listen—and I know she's very busy—but she also needs to have people within various communities who she can have a continuing relationship with, but who then can also take her to different communities in order to have a town hall.

Policing has to be democratic, and the commissioner has to realize that. As with any police chief, the police chief works for the board or, in this case, the commissioner works for the minister, and if it's not working out, then, as in all cases, it's maybe time to find someone who has a different vision.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Professor, I'll just pick up on the democratization of policing. You've mentioned it a couple of times.

An agency like the RCMP goes from one end of the country to the other. How do you ensure that the needs of people in Surrey are addressed within a local context, as well as those of people in Halifax or Nova Scotia? Isn't it inherently difficult to be able to have both?

Also, there's a broader question I'm putting forward, and I want you to address it as well. Is it time for us or the RCMP to get out of contract policing altogether?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

Well, I think that would be a huge step. I'm not necessarily opposed to it, but I don't think it's going to happen overnight, and, as you note, Surrey is coming up with its own police.

You can look at the Yukon Police Council. That's an example of where, within one territory, they have taken proactive democratic steps.

If you look at the 2019 Ontario legislation, the Community Safety and Policing Act, you see that Ontario has a detachment board for each OPP detachment and the first nations served by the Ontario Provincial Police. When we have these detachment boards, we also have to train those citizens who are serving in a democratic capacity so that they're not completely dominated by the detachment coordinator, but I think we need something like that.

I look at the RCMP Act and it is the least democratic policing act in Canada that I'm aware of. I think the Ontario act is actually much better on the democracy front.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

In comparison, let's look at the SIU, for example, and the Toronto Police Services Board. They're two essentially independent bodies that oversee, in some respects, the work of the Toronto police.

What mechanism do you think the RCMP needs? I know that you touched on some earlier, but in terms of the SIU portion, what do you think is required for investigation and charges to come forward when there's inappropriate or wrong behaviour?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

We obviously need some SIU-type mechanism for those provinces that do not already have one, but my understanding is that in Alberta, say, they have their own SIU and it handles the investigation. The problem in Nunavut, say, is that if the RCMP shoots someone in Nunavut, which has happened so often, it's the Ottawa police that are investigating.

I would go back to the fact that I'm a criminal law professor, and although I think the SIU is important, I also know that you have to give everyone reasonable doubt about guilt. That's why I talked about changing the self-defence laws and the use of force policies, because I actually think that it is even more important than simply having criminal prosecution [Technical difficulty—Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Anandasangaree.

With that, we'll go on to Madame Michaud.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Roach, thank you for joining us today.

You gave some other examples, including the measures taken in the United Kingdom.

To combat systemic racism in our institutions, specifically in the police, you feel that our involvement should be through legislation, including amendments to the use-of-force guidelines for the police. You also propose no longer using a top-down approach, where the governance comes from on high and moves downwards.

Can you tell us a little more about the legislative approach that the Minister of Justice and his department should be adopting?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

Unfortunately, I wasn't getting the interpretation in my ear, but I think I followed you, although I may embarrass myself, and I beg your pardon if I do.

I do think that with a top-down sort of approach, when the Minister of Public Safety came to you very recently on the mandate letter, I'm pretty sure he came with the heads of five or six different organizations. He has a huge portfolio, and I worry that this is beyond the capacity of any one human being. Maybe we need a minister for the RCMP, or maybe it should be taken out of Public Safety and put into some other ministry.

I think this is a real problem. We have a mammoth ministry, and we have the RCMP, which in itself has 20,000 people, some involved in contract policing, others involved in national policing. This is a huge issue, even before you get into the issues of corrections and CBSA. One of my concerns is that we're going to take the existing RCMP complaints and review body—which I think, of its own admission, is really struggling—and add CBSA to it. That's not necessarily going to make things better. I believe there are only two commissioners in that body, so I think it is important to recognize that the federal government has a huge presence.

If the federal government starts moving out of contract policing, I think it also has to think about recouping those funds, which are less, because the federal government is subsidizing contract policing a lot less, and I think that with unionization in the RCMP you're going to see more "Surreys”.

Obviously COVID has thrown a spanner into the works, but if there is a withdrawal from contract policing, I would hope that the federal government would use its spending power to incentivize all existing police forces to partner with other public agencies and community agencies less coercively and without discrimination, or with less discrimination, to deliver essential policing services. As my co-panellist has talked about, that would also involve victims of crime, which is also another huge issue.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

Before I ask my next question, I want to make sure that Mr. Roach has access to the interpretation.

Is it working, Mr. Roach?