Public Safety Committee on Nov. 16th, 2020

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Yes, Chair, I will be joining you and I do apologize for missing the opening comments by Melanie and Lisa, because of connection problems.

As you will know, today we're celebrating National Métis Week. I had an opportunity to recognize the Métis people and to thank those who are so involved in making a difference. So Melanie and Lisa, I do want to thank you for the personal contribution you have made over the years. We may be related, as I am Métis myself and my roots are in Villeneuve, Lac Ste. Anne, the St. Albert area, L’Hirondelle and Cunninigham. We sure are connected. There is no doubt about that.

I have just a few questions. First of all, what barriers do you see to Métis women taking up a career in law enforcement, or do you see barriers?

[Melanie Omeniho]

Honestly, there are many barriers to Métis women going into law enforcement. I do have some very good friends and allies who are Métis women.

By the way my grandfather's name is Cunningham. I know that's an aside, but there are women within that system. As much as I'm telling you that there's racism in the system, we also know there are a great number of gender issues within that system in how women are treated and how it's managed. It's not an easy system, and you have to be awfully tough. The barriers entail how well-received women are, and how they're treated.

This system is an old system. It's based on principles that are not in today's world when you're talking about things like feminism. We need to change how it's looked at. Back in the days when the RCMP was formed, we had stories from the 1800s of RCMP officers raping our women. This is not just starting now; this is already something from centuries ago.

We need to start looking at a system that is not based on the fact that women have no value. Back then, women didn't even have a vote or a say. We have to change these systems now, so that they're reflective of exactly what our future is going to be in order for people to be treated equally within that system.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Building on what you said, do you have any other thoughts or recommendations on what this committee should look for or ensure that it's included in a first nations policing act? Is there anything we need to avoid?

[Melanie Omeniho]

I'm not an expert on first nations policing, but what we need to avoid when we're looking at alternative policing is under-resourcing. We need to ensure that they are resourced well enough to actually do their jobs. They should not just be a fraction of something else, but should actually have the authority to do their jobs and not be overseen by an authoritarian system of another police service.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Would a local more diverse and more accountable policing oversight at the local level increase the accountability and trust of the community in the police?

[Melanie Omeniho]

I believe it would. There are some models of community engagement, and oversight boards do help. I believe that some of them do have, or ensure there are indigenous people engaged. It helps people to have confidence in the police services, and it helps to ensure there is a healthy oversight within the system.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You'll have to open a separate chapter of ancestry.ca.

We now have Mr. Lightbound, for four minutes.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I am also going to echo my colleagues' comments. I would be remiss if I did not highlight the anniversary of the death of Louis Riel today. His memory lives on across the country, but particularly in Quebec and in the hearts of Quebecers. So I want to highlight this important day.

My two questions go to you, Professor Roach. Allow me to ask them in French because I feel that we must not underestimate your ability to understand the language, as you have demonstrated for Ms. Michaud's questions. So I will follow somewhat along the lines of her last comment.

I very much like the approach you are advocating, that of professionalizing police forces, as an alternative to the paramilitary model that the RCMP and a number of other police forces seem to encourage. Could you tell us about the best examples you have observed, whether they involve municipal police forces or those abroad?

My second question is about contract policing. What are the greatest advantages in your opinion? Can you give us a quick overview?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

With regard to the second question, Surrey did a lot of work and found that by leaving contract policing, it would have its own police board where the mayor would be chair, and it could appoint people who represented the demographic diversity of Surrey. It also found that it would have much more flexibility in terms of hiring people and that there would not be this three-year cycle. A lot of RCMP officers will come into detachments that perhaps are 1,000 or 2,000 miles away from their homes, stay for three years and move out. The disadvantage of exiting from contract policing is that it obviously requires start-up funds. Although Surrey is estimating that it will save money, that is in part based upon projections that the RCMP is due for a raise. Now that they have a union, they will probably get one. Obviously, this was all done before COVID.

I'm not sure that I followed your first question exactly, but thank you for praising me for understanding French. I've tried throughout my career, but not with the greatest success.

The paramilitary.... I think this goes back to the problem that my co-panellist spoke about: police officers' experiencing sexism and racism within the ranks. One of the reasons why that festers is that there's a hierarchical structure. The RCMP was not even based on Sir Robert Peel's model of a civilian police. It was rather based on the Irish constabulary, which was a colonial occupying force within Ireland, and wore the red because that is what the military wore. I agree with my co-panellist that the roots of paramilitarism in the RCMP run extremely deep. They run from the start of the RCMP. They are reinforced in Regina where everyone trains, and they're reinforced within the command structure. It will take a brave and inspired leader to really fight that. We've had one civilian leader for the RCMP. That didn't work out so well. I think what you're seeing is that the institution and the paramilitarism of the institution are very durable.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Roach and Mr. Lightbound.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for one minute.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for you, Ms. Omeniho.

You mentioned that Canada has gone through long periods of racism towards aboriginal and Métis women, and that is quite true. Nothing more needs to be said. You were saying that the women have never really felt safe or protected by police officers. That is a serious problem, because all Quebecers and all Canadians, whatever their origin, deserve to feel safe in their surroundings.

In your opinion, what can we do to reestablish that bond of trust between Métis women and police officers?

[Melanie Omeniho]

In my view, I believe that when police officers are dealing with individuals, instead of first seeing them as potential criminals, they need to hear their stories and be able to see what they can do and how they can address people. In a community.... I can give you example after example of where women very often have been incarcerated when they've actually been victims of violence. They haven't been treated with the same values that maybe other racial people might have been. I'm not saying that I don't believe there haven't been white people who have been victims of issues with police, but far too often in our community there are women who do not get the same values or supports when police are engaged. If they have mental health issues, they're treated really horrifically. Just last week there was the video of an indigenous women having her clothes stripped off in a police station—she was actually drunk and intoxicated—and they gave her a concussion and she had to go to the hospital.

Those issues are real. They're not something obscure that's going on. With the new video cameras available, we're seeing this stuff in the media and being horrified by it, but it's the life that we experience.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there.

Mr. Harris, you have a final minute, please. Madame May will possibly have one minute after that, and then we'll have to close this session.

Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Roach, in making your recommendations, you suggested that Parliament ought to regulate police practices, including the use of force.

Are you suggesting a standard that's in the Criminal Code or in the RCMP Act that would go into contract policing? Exactly how should the legislation of Parliament regulate these national standards or [Technical difficulty--Editor] outcomes?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

I think it should be done through the Criminal Code, perhaps with regulations that have a standard as they have in the U.K.

In the Golden strip-search case, the Supreme Court practically begged Parliament to regulate strip searches. We know that strip searches are a problem in some police forces and not in others.

It should also be tied to collecting data. In the U.K., when you use a stop-and-search power, the police have to record when they did it, who they did it to, and those statistics are published.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Madame May, you have one minute, please.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Given the shortage of time, forgive me, Professor Roach, for not bothering to say how hugely I respect your work and how grateful I am to you.

I want to go right to the question of the CBSA. We have inadequate review of the RCMP and none of CBSA.

What would you recommend we do about racism and abuse by CBSA officers?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

Well, I think you need to look at training. You need to create some sort of advisory board that would deal with people who are specialists with migrants and the issues that migrants go through.

I'm a bit skeptical about pushing it into the RCMP review body, which is already struggling.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame May.

Unfortunately, colleagues, that is where we are going to have to end this session. On your behalf, I want to thank Professor Roach and President Omeniho for their contributions.

As you can see, members would really, really like to be asking more questions, but we unfortunately suffer the tyranny of time.

With that, we will suspend and re-empanel, so please don't turn off your computers.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

This is our second session. As you can see, we are unfortunately about 40 minutes behind where we should be, but it is democracy at work.

We have with us for the second session, Professor Samuels-Wortley from Carleton University; and Vice-President Gerri Sharpe from Pauktuutit Inuit Women of Canada, along with Samantha Michaels.

Each of you has seven minutes, and I'll ask you to speak in the order that you're listed on the notice of meeting.

With that, Professor Samuels-Wortley, you have seven minutes, please.

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley, Assistant Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I thank the committee for this invitation to speak on issues of systemic racism in policing in Canada.

Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that I am taking space on the traditional territories of the Mississauga of the Credit, the Anishinabe, the Chippewa, Haudenosaunee and the Wendat peoples.

My name is Kanika Samuels-Wortley, and I am an assistant professor with the Institute of Criminology and Criminal Justice at Carleton University. My research centres on the policing of racialized communities as well as youth crime and victimization.

Today, I speak to you not only as a researcher but also as a Black member of Canadian society.

We, as Canadians, often view diversity as our strength. However, at this point in history, we can no longer ignore growing evidence that social inequality within our country is highly racialized. Black and indigenous peoples are more likely to live in poverty, thus creating barriers to social mobility.

The Canadian criminal justice scholarship has explored the intersection of social inequality in crime, but often neglects to consider the role of race and racism and how discrimination factors into criminalization, particularly given—

[Technical difficulty--Editor]

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes, Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Mr. Chair, we lost the audio, and I certainly don't want to miss any of the testimony.