Public Safety Committee on Nov. 16th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Unfortunately, I have to cut you off.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

See, I told you. He always cuts me off early. That's not even close to six minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz runs a very slow clock.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think it's supposed to be the Liberals next.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry. I apologize.

Mr. Motz got me so upset that I forgot Madam Damoff. How could I possibly have done that?

Sorry about that. Please, go ahead.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to both our witnesses.

Both of you, I want to go back to contract policing because what we've seen in a number of recent issues—the Wet'suwet'en issues with the RCMP and the Mi'kmaq fishers right now—is that those RCMP officers are contracted by the province. As federal representatives, it's very frustrating because they actually report to the provinces. In the north, the reporting is to the territory. You touched on it.

Professor Samuels-Wortley, I'll start with you and give you more than a minute. If the RCMP were to get out of contract policing, it would allow them to do other policing priorities that are actually under federal jurisdiction. I'm wondering if you could perhaps expand a little bit on the whole issue of the federal government's being involved in contract policing and the benefits. We know that Surrey has just implemented its own police service and is moving away from contract policing.

Professor, I'll start with you, and then we'll go on.

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

Certainly, and going back to what I mentioned before, and where I support the RCMP no longer having to be contracted out to communities, again what is being demonstrated by my fellow representative at this moment is that within our communities there are many that are grossly underfunded. There might be an idea or a sense that if the RCMP is not contracted out to those areas, that funding then can be used to support particular programs that are necessary to a particular community.

I also can see why at the moment there is a level of interest in the defund the police movement, and I'm careful and I'm not saying that I support that wholeheartedly, but I do support a focus on community, simply because when we demonstrate that there is a focus on building a healthier community, you do find that the level of crime that happens in that community dissipates. Thus, I think it is important for us to explore, to truly explore, how we can use an allocation of funding to help support a community to be a lot healthier in order for its citizens to thrive, as opposed to potentially turning to criminality.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Vice-president Sharpe, you haven't specifically said “ending contract policing”, but as you know, Minister Blair, in his mandate letter, is to “co-develop...First Nations policing...as an essential service”. I'm just wondering about expanding that to include Inuit and Métis—but in particular Inuit—in that policing model. Rather than having the RCMP policing in the north, it would be an essential service provided by the people who actually live there. Do you have any thoughts about that?

I know that you haven't used “ending contract policing”, but it's kind of what you've been talking about. I'm just wondering if you could comment on that as well.

[Gerri Sharpe]

Before I pass it over to Samantha for a more complete answer, I just want to say that “defunding” is not a word that I am really familiar with. I will say that reconciliation is the way towards anything, and that starts with conversation. When I say “conversation”, that means working together towards a common goal in the way that we currently live.

I'll ask Samantha to finish that for us, please.

[Samantha Michaels]

Again, there are four regions in Inuit Nunangat. Of course, Nunavut, Inuvialuit, and Nunatsiavut are all policed by RCMP, and then there's Nunavik, which is policed by the Kativik Regional Police Force, which makes this a sort of unique situation in spanning such a large land mass.

But that is true: I don't think we've had the time or the opportunity to consult and to really come to an answer about contract policing. I think what came out loud and clear through the report was the need for more Inuit civilian positions within the RCMP. I'm not sure that the RCMP and the Kativik Regional Police Force...or actually, I should be more definitive: I am sure that it's not working. It's just not.

Again, I think what we need to do is that we really need to start rethinking policing, and by “we” I mean “Inuit”. I think that our next step would likely be to hold mass consultations with Inuit, centring the voices of women and youth at the forefront and understanding how they perceive or how they want to perceive further policing, but our report does speak to the need to have Inuit civilian positions made available.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

Professor, I only have about 45 seconds left.

On the issue of body-worn cameras, there was a study in 2019—the largest to date—that said these had minimal to no impact on ending systemic racism. I'm wondering if you have views on the use of body-worn cameras.

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

Certainly, I can speak to that. The research that has been done on body-worn cameras is inconclusive. You'll find studies that do support its use, and others that don't, such as the one you're raising.

I would believe that ending systemic racism is not going to begin once police start using body cameras. This can be demonstrated with a number of misuses of force that have been caught on camera, and nothing has been done.

I think we need to speak more to accountability as to when there is an issue or a concern over the way that a police officer has interacted with a member of the community. How is that officer being held accountable? Simply catching this on video doesn't seem to do much. There's that evidence there, but the other issue is that the police often have the upper hand in how that evidence is used. As—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to cut you off there. I apologize for that.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for joining us, particularly Ms. Samuels-Wortley.

Ms. Samuels-Wortley, you are currently working on a study that is exploring how perceptions and experiences of racial discrimination from peace officers can contribute to victimization and delinquency among young Black and Indigenous people, and how it contributes to their feeling oppressed and marginalized in society. Our present study does not deal with young people at all. We often focus on indigenous women, and rightly so, but young people are often are also the target.

I am the Bloc Québécois' critic on youth matters, hence my interest in this. Could you provide some more detail about the way in which perceptions of injustice can can lead to victimization or procriminal values among young people from the Black and Indigenous communities?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Before you answer that question, Professor Samuels-Wortley, I want to make sure that all of our witnesses have translation. Is that working?

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

Sorry, no.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Go to the globe at the bottom of your screen, and press it. That will give you the English translation.

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

I apologize for that. I did not have it there.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'll ask Madame Michaud to re-ask her questions in a truncated fashion.

Madame Michaud, please go ahead, for 15 seconds.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Does my time start again from zero, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm going to double up your time. I stopped the clock.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, that is kind of you.

Ms. Samuels-Wortley, let me thank you for the work you are doing. You are currently working on a study that explores how perceptions and experiences of racial discrimination by peace officers can contribute to victimization and delinquency among young Black and Indigenous people, thereby contributing to their feeling oppressed and marginalized in society.

I am the Bloc Québécois' critic on youth matters. I find that we are not talking about youth a lot in this study. We talk a lot about indigenous women and it is very good, indeed necessary, to do so. However, could you give us some more detail about the way in which perceptions of injustice can lead to victimization or procriminal values among young people from the Black and Indigenous communities?

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

That's a great question, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak to this further.

Yes, perceptions of injustice are now being explored to be considered as a criminogenic factor. There's a perception of a level of unfairness, particularly for Black youth. When you look at every social indicator, the Black population is at the lowest levels of employment, income, housing and health, as we are seeing now with COVID-19.

There really is a sense of alienation and hopelessness within the Black community. As a result of these perceptions of injustice, when it comes to policing—and we're now discussing more about systemic racism within policing—there's a sense that society is unfair.

As a result, some youth may develop pro-crime attitudes. This increases and puts them at a vulnerability, because if they do not trust the police, who are meant to serve and protect them, there's a chance they will develop self-help strategies. They may engage in criminogenic behaviours when it it comes to carrying weapons for protection, or developing their own sense of vigilante justice, because they do not believe that police will be on their side or protect them when in need.

This is an area that I am looking to explore further. I believe it is something that we need to explore, because even with a criminal record, it creates an additional barrier to achieve many of the social factors that lead to mobility. As a result, there is an extreme sense of alienation within the Black community, particularly with some Black youth.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

It's often in the way in which people interact with each other. In your opinion, how should officers interact with youth from the Black and Indigenous communities? Is there a way of reducing the negative perceptions towards them?