Public Safety Committee on Nov. 16th, 2020

[Prof. Kent Roach]

Just a second. Sorry, I'm still not getting the interpretation.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

There's a globe at the bottom of the screen, and if you put that on “English” you should be able to get the interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It's right beside “participants”.

[Prof. Kent Roach]

A globe? No. I have a phone, a plus and a minus, and I have a microphone cut. I don't have a globe.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is it at the bottom of your screen?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

I'm afraid not, sorry.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Mark D'Amore]

There should be an “interpretation” icon at the bottom of the screen.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You'll see “mute”, “stop video” and in the middle, "participants”. Next is “interpretation”, then “restrictions” and then “leave”, right across the bottom.

Now you're on mute.

[Prof. Kent Roach]

I'm sorry. It just doesn't seem to be present.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Well, that's a problem with being a professor.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll have to plow on.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for two minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Roach, do you think you will be able to understand the question in French?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

I hope so.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

What you said about the department's workload is interesting, with the load being probably too heavy to allow it to really handle the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP, and to find ways of eradicating systemic racism in the institutions.

You said that it is important to somewhat abandon the paramilitary model, in order to move towards an educated professional model. All through this study, we have talked about a solution that would have officers on the ground accompanied by social workers or mental health specialists, for example.

Do you think that it is a good idea? What should the federal government do? Should it provide more funding to those programs so that we have more of those people on the ground?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

As you noted, I do think we need a more flexible model. I was part of an expert panel commissioned by the Canadian council of academies on the future of policing. We heard evidence from around the world that policing needs to become much more specialized so that what works for cybercrime does not necessarily work for 24-7.

The idea that everyone in the RCMP or all officers have to go through Depot in Regina I think is anachronistic. Although there are financial challenges, which I believe your question alluded to, I think if we have a more flexible workforce in the RCMP, this could actually result in savings. On this idea that everyone has to be a police officer for the majority of their working life, I think that if we look at this in a 10-, 20- or 30-year horizon, it's not realistic. I recognize that the Supreme Court has allowed the unionization of the RCMP, but I worry a little bit that this as well as the paramilitary ethos, and the idea that everyone has to go through Regina in a kind of boot camp, will make the RCMP a less nimble police force.

Many municipal—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we have to leave it there. I apologize. It's what I do best, apparently. I will address our time limitations once Mr. Harris is finished.

With that, Mr. Harris, you have six minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of our witnesses today.

First, like Mr. Anandasangaree, I would like to recognize the Louis Riel anniversary today.

President Omeniho from Women of the Métis Nation, you talked about the importance of cultural understanding in terms of policing. I think I get that, very much so, but let me ask you if you have any opinion on whether there is any role in Métis communities for an indigenous police force and Métis involvement in the police force or the kind of oversight that Dr. Roach was taking about at the local level. Is that something that you would think would be helpful? Do you have any views on it?

[Melanie Omeniho]

Actually, our governing members are looking at the possibility. It's a lot more challenging, though, than for some of the first nation communities who have police services. The issue is that we don't have a captive audience in one particular spot. I do know that the Métis nation and the Métis nation governments want to look at developing or building some of their own justice processes.

We have many members who are involved and are RCMP members. Many of my friends and relatives over the years became members of the police services to try to change those institutions. I want to tell you, whether people like to hear it or not, that they tell me some of the stories: Racism is embedded within that system. It isn't about trying to say the whole system is corrupt, but about our making it a better system, if that's the system of policing we're going to be using.

I'd like to see at least a relationship between the various police services and the Métis nation and the Métis nation governments if we're going to move forward. I think without that, we'll always be a victim of the service rather than be a part of increasing it and making it a strength-based place.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much for those insights.

Dr. Roach, I know we have a lot on our plate to undertake a study of systemic racism in policing in Canada. One of the focuses that you talked about was the oversight of the RCMP. I see two aspects to that. Is there room for a national board somewhere up there that has the same kind of role in policy, as well as local oversight, as you suggested, maybe as a default position in communities where the RCMP are acting? Can both of those models exist together and should both be covered in legislation?

[Prof. Kent Roach]

I think the answer to that, Mr. Harris, is yes. The Ontario legislation is moving now towards an advisory committee for the OPP overall, as well as detachment boards and first nations boards. I think that would fit in even more naturally with the RCMP, which does a lot of national policing.

So I would think the national board for the RCMP would deal with issues of both over- and under-policing that Muslim Canadians struggle with in part because of stereotypes associating them with terrorism, in part because of hate crimes that are unfortunately aimed at Muslims. I see the two interacting. But I also think it's important that the RCMP be less rigid and less paramilitary so that the local boards can have some power because, obviously, what's required for policing in Yukon is very different from what's required for policing in British Columbia.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I'd also like to ask about the RCMP complaints commission. It seems to me that this is a broken system or is not very efficient. I still see 175 reports on the commissioner's desk, and that's not good for her and it's not good for the people who are waiting to hear their complaints. Is there room for some mechanism like an automatic release of these reports after two months or 60 or 90 days to clear the decks? Should that be the way to go or do we need to revamp the system? You shouldn't have to have a MOU between the commissioner and the chief of the complaints commission to get things moving. Yet, as you point out, what we have added to this is another agency, the Canada Border Services Agency, with the legislation that was tabled before prorogation. That seems to be going nowhere. What can we recommend to fix it?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have approximately 30 seconds.

[Prof. Kent Roach]

I think here of a drop-dead date that would allow the commission to release these reports, but the whole idea is that the commissioner should absorb and learn the lessons from the report.

The commission has done some very good work on systemic.... Maybe one way to go is to leave it as a systemic body, but allow the provinces, when necessary, to have their own complaints bodies deal with the individual complaints against RCMP officers.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Again, I apologize for cutting people off. We're already 20 minutes over the cut-off time. I'm proposing a second round of four minutes for the first two questioners and four minutes for Madame Michaud, and Mr. Harris will finish off this panel. I have a request from Madam May for a question as well, and I'm inclined not to allow it, only because we are so far behind.

With that, the second round is the Conservatives for four minutes, except I don't know who the Conservative questioner is.