Public Safety Committee on Nov. 16th, 2020

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

Again, that's a great question.

I simply ask all of the youth I interview what a police officer can do for them to feel some type of connection, or not to feel negatively towards them.

I do want to make clear that every youth understands the importance of having an officer. Not one has stated that they want to defund the police or don't believe there is a sense of utility in having officers.

It literally comes down to being treated with respect. Every single one has said that all they want, when they encounter an officer, is to feel they are being treated fairly and with respect. You would think something as simple as that would be easy to achieve, but clearly it's not.

I do believe this needs to start within the police culture and to change the way that police feel they need to interact with the community. There needs to be more of a focus on community development and positive community engagement.

As my fellow attendees have mentioned as well, there are positive instances where they've had members of their community state that they have had positive interactions. I believe these do exist, but one negative interaction can completely dismantle that positive interaction and can completely change the way that one perceives the police culture and the police institution.

I really think we need to start back at square one as to what it means to be a police officer and not view it as soft policing but as essential policing.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about a minute and a half.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

In your studies, you are working with young people and you are listening to them. Do you think that they should be given a greater place in developing strategies designed to improve relations between themselves and police officers? If so, how would they be able to act as agents of change, so that we are able to improve policing systems in Canada?

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

I certainly do. I agree that youth need to be at the table. They are the ones who are interacting with police, and I honestly am in awe whenever I speak with a number of them when I'm within the community and talking to individuals and hearing their insights and perception.

I believe that youth advisory committees exist. I just don't know how much power they have. They really should have a great deal more power for coming up with solutions on the way to bridge a more positive relationship with the police. I think it really comes down to making sure that their voices are heard, and definitely having a stronger role in building a stronger community.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

We're going to have to leave it there.

Mr. Harris, you have six minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of our main witnesses, and to Ms. Michaels as well for your contribution.

Vice-president Sharpe, I was listening intently to your description of the role the RCMP played and the cultural role they played in your communities historically and whatnot, and then to the list of very fundamental portions of the 15 recommendations your report of last January made.

Conjuring up images that we've seen over the last number of months, which led in part to this committee's study, it all seems to beg the following question. In your view, is the RCMP a body that is capable of gaining the trust, with all of the things they would have to do to ensure that, to overcome all of this history, or should we be looking at perhaps another way out?

Ms. Damoff touched on it in a way, talking about contract policing, but is there hope for that organization to be the vehicle for proper policing in Inuit communities?

[Gerri Sharpe]

At the Pauktuutit level, we've not had a discussion as to whether or not the RCMP is the body to do that. Any body that needs to police Inuit communities will need to have specialized police training, which needs to happen in the communities, so whether they are Inuit or whether they come from the south, non-Inuit people, the amount of—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You're not the first witness who's had that problem. It's mostly members, though.

[Gerri Sharpe]

What I'm getting at is the fact that along with the training that's needed for the population base that we have and the services that would be required, there are still going to need to be non-Inuit who do this. Whether it be a contractor or the RCMP, it still needs to happen. What needs to happen, along with that, is the cultural competency part.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

If you had an alternative on the table, with an Inuit governance model under your control, would that be something your communities would be interested in exploring?

[Gerri Sharpe]

Samantha, do you want to try to take this one?

[Samantha Michaels]

Yes. Again, I think it comes back to the fact that there hasn't been that thorough consultation or opportunity to do that. I think that's the next step, stemming from our report. Our report clearly points to a number of ways that policing is not effective, or even equitably funded.

There is a need to do this consultation. I think it's urgent.

The second part, too, is that there needs to be massive investment into communities. We're talking about 51 communities. There are only 15 shelters serving those communities that are fly-in.

In situations of gender-based violence, which we know is arising often, what are the couple of RCMP members who are in the communities to do? There are such limited community resources. I think there's so much that needs to be done that will involve policing, but it goes beyond it as well.

[Gerri Sharpe]

I will add to that. Please keep in mind that when I talk about Inuit Nunungat, I'm talking about across the top of the Northwest Territories, all of Nunavut, all of Nunavik. Basically, Inuit Nunungat takes up one-third of Canada.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Oh, yes, in Labrador, we have Nunatsiavut as well, which I'm more familiar with, although I've been to Nunavut as well. It is a big territory, there's no question about that. There is a big series of problems that we've been talking about today. Let's see.

I don't have much time left, but I did want to ask Professor Samuels-Wortley about something she brought up about police discretion. I know it's something that's very powerful in the hands of police officers in dealing with any members of the public, and in particular it influences how a systemic bias might take place.

How do you control that, aside from better training? Is there another way of ensuring, perhaps at the court level, that if discretion is not properly exercised, the kind of diversion or alternative to ending up with a criminal record, which is further stigmatizing, etc...? Is that absent, or is that a way to go? Is that something we could recommend?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about 30 seconds, please.

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

That's another great question. How to answer that in 30 seconds?

In this sense, I would say that the police are clearly a product of our environment. We need to deal with issues of systemic racism within our own society.

Again, that can be dealt with by starting right from the beginning with training and demonstrating that individuals who come from racialized communities do have to deal with additional structural barriers that have an impact on behaviour. As a result, we do all want to feel that we should be treated the same, but there needs to be a recognition that there are certain segments of our population who are not afforded that. The police need to be well versed on our colonial past as well as our enslavement past in Canada. Perhaps that might increase the level of understanding of the social context of Black and indigenous communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Colleagues, as you can see, we are way past the time. I propose to have a second round and to do the same thing we did in the first panel of witnesses, with questions of four minutes, four minutes, one minute, one minute. I'll point out that we do have to do a little committee business and accept the subcommittee report.

With that, I'm going to ask Madam Stubbs to speak for four minutes, please.

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll try to do this quickly and also split my time with my colleague Damien, if there's time.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here today.

I think there a couple of key issues that are very clear and striking from your testimony: trust, confidence and, in some cases, fear in dealing with policing. On the one hand, it's quite concerning to hear that people are fearful and less likely to report crimes because of victimization. On the other hand, because of generations of experiences, lack of cultural knowledge, language barriers and other things, there are obviously these issues of trust and confidence and fear.

In order to make some improvements in that regard, and also to increase accountability, to all the witnesses, if you were to have a revised oversight model of the RCMP, what elements would you include in light of the fact that the complaints process is so backlogged and overly complex, often requiring a lawyer to even get into it? Are there any best practice models, either in Canada or around the world, that would be necessary, and have any of you been consulted on any or all of these issues by the current government?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Did you direct that question to anyone in particular?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

It's for all of them, and I'll let you call on each.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

We'll start with Professor Samuels-Wortley.

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

Certainly.

I think where we really need to start is with accountability, the sense that the community should be able to feel that when concerns are raised, they're going to be dealt with. We're very much in the dark as to the process. There is definitely a lack of transparency, so we need to have an increased sense of transparency with regard to what occurs with officers who do engage in police misconduct, including a higher level of use of force or whatever it may be.

I know this is particular to Ontario, but we continue to have officers who are paid even if they are suspended. That doesn't sit right with many individuals who may have had their lives literally changed from an encounter with an officer, while that officer is then suspended but continues to have a salary. The community really needs to feel that, if something has been done, police will be looked at with a sense of higher accountability, as they really do have the ability to damage someone's life.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Stubbs, you're almost through your four minutes and you wanted to split your time with Mr. Kurek. Do you want a second answer, or should we go to Mr. Kurek?

[Shannon Stubbs, Conservative, Lakeland, AB]

I think it would be important to hear from the other witnesses too. Damien is saying yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

He's fine with that. Okay.

Vice-President Sharpe, go ahead, please.