Public Safety Committee on Nov. 16th, 2020

[Gerri Sharpe]

Thank you for that.

I actually want to point out the fact that you mentioned generations of RCMP misconduct. I'm going to tell you that here in the north, the RCMP have been around only for a little more than my lifetime. While you can count that as generations, it was when my grandfather was younger than I am now, shortly before I was born, that the RCMP were introduced to the north. I'm not that old; I'm a young grandmother.

I will tell you a story about Simon Tookoome who was from Baker Lake. He wrote a story about the first time he saw a wooden house, and it was the RCMP wooden house. He saw a cat in there, so he went in, and he said that it felt too loud and too noisy, because he was used to being in an igloo.

When it comes to mistrust, the members who are being sent into our communities.... You can probably look this up in records from Deline, where members were sent who had had stayed convictions of assaults. These members are going into our community to police our community. That is a problem. We need to trust that the officers who are being sent into communities are above reproach, so they cannot be convicted of the offences they are arresting people for.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there. I apologize.

Either Mr. Iacono or Madam Khera, go ahead for four minutes, please.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Samuels-Wortley, this evening, so many things have been said about the public's trust in the police. If we had to do three things as quickly as possible to bring about change, what would they be?

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

I would certainly say that there needs to be a level of accountability, and by that, I mean that when an officer.... Following what the last colleague mentioned, if officers have been charged with something, they can't switch from one policing service to another. Officers need to be held accountable. Once they're charged with something and there is enough evidence to demonstrate sufficient reason for dismissal, they need to be dismissed and no longer be a part of law enforcement, as officers are held to a higher standard.

There also needs to be training, starting right from the beginning. There needs to be a focus on community engagement, not simply on how to use a weapon or to do chokeholds. There needs to be a complete overhaul and a change in what a police officer is meant to do in the community.

Also, when it comes to the third, I believe it is also about having a better sense of our colonialist past and our history of enslavement in Canada. We tend to think that this was never an issue here. It's quite surprising that many find it surprising that we have systemic racism in Canada, and this really needs to be changed right from the beginning. Therefore, this needs to be started right when an officer is sent into training.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Go ahead, Madam Khera.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again to all of our witnesses for being here and your very important testimony.

Professor Samuels-Wortley, I want to pick your brain. We know that race-based data collection within policing could be extremely helpful for improving public accountability and informing police policies. Perhaps you could touch a bit on why that's so significant, and perhaps also talk a bit about any considerations—how we collect that data, how it can be used—and certainly any concerns in ensuring that it's not further used to tarnish the community or to reinforce any racist stereotypes. If you could shed some light on this, that would be great.

Thank you.

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

I appreciate that question, as that is absolutely something that needs to be implemented as well, so there are not just three but four. It is important to collect sufficient race-based data, as this gives us an opportunity to see how different racial groups are experiencing policing. It can also be an opportunity for us to identify potential areas of discrimination in how officers are dealing with certain communities.

Within my own research, it is very important to get the voices and experiences from individuals who have experienced the police; however, with sufficient race-based data and that quantitative data, we're able to see trends and have a more nuanced understanding as to how the police and the community interact.

I do understand that there are concerns over how race-based data can be used to further stigmatize certain communities. My colleagues Dr. Akwasi Owusu-Bempah and Scot Wortley can speak to this a lot more eloquently than I can, but it is important for there to be a disclaimer as to how there are contextual factors that can demonstrate why there might be a higher level of offending within particular communities. That's why we need to have deeper discussions as to the structural factors that lead to criminogenic factors.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, your four minutes is up.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for one minute.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This time, my question is for you, Ms. Sharpe. In a report on gendered violence against Inuit women, your organization recommends creating protocols to fight against gender-based violence, training about that violence, and trauma-informed policing. This is in order to better respond to the needs of Inuit women in the face of increased levels of violence, gender-based victimization and the experience of colonialism among Inuit.

Can you give us more details about the best way of implementing those recommendations?

[Gerri Sharpe]

Thank you for that.

I'm sorry, but I was disconnected. I did catch all of your question, but I would like Samantha to answer this first.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Answer very briefly, please.

[Samantha Michaels]

I believe that recommendation speaks to police understanding gender-based violence and the impact it has on Inuit women. A lot of our suggestions around this include having a family violence liaison officer in each of the communities, given the disproportionately high rates of violence that Inuit women experience, as well as having a female officer present and leading questioning. There are a lot of different factors.

I think it comes down to, again, cultural competency training and who's developing this cultural competency training, especially as it concerns the impact and the experience of violence against Inuit women.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Michaud.

Mr. Harris, you have the final minute, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Professor Samuels-Wortley, you talked about the need for anti-racism initiatives that cover a broad field. In order of importance, are there any specifics that you would put at the top of the list of things that would address systemic racism? I hate to oversimplify it, but we only have a short period of time.

[Kanika Samuels-Wortley]

Of course.

Again, these initiatives need to be evaluated. There needs to be a demonstration that they're working, whatever it may be. I think the issue at hand is that training is often thrown at police services and there's this idea that once training is done, all is fixed. But it clearly shows that there isn't any change in the interactions within the community, so I can't specifically say what particular form of anti-racism training works. A better evaluation is needed as to what potentially may have an impact in the way police serve their community.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Unfortunately, colleagues, we're going to have to leave it there.

On behalf of my colleagues, I want to thank Professor Samuels-Wortley, Vice-President Sharpe and Ms. Michaels for your effort to be here and for your testimony and thoughtfulness.

As you can see, the committee is completely engaged in what you had to say.

I see that Mr. Dalton is quite pleased. I think he's going to be reaching out to you Vice-President Sharpe to see whether you're from the same family tree, which is not such a bad thing.

With that colleagues, I'm going to bring the meeting to an end. I'm going to look to the clerk as to whether we have to go in camera to be able to accept the report of the subcommittee.

[The Clerk]

How you wish to proceed on that is up to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unless there are wild and crazy objections, I'm going to carry on and ask our witnesses to sign off.

I'm going to assume that colleagues have the report of the subcommittee. Before I ask for a motion and discussion, when we did the report we anticipated that Minister Blair would be available next Wednesday. He is not available next then, but will be available on the 25th, the following Wednesday. Other than that, the report is pretty well as was discussed in the subcommittee.

Is there any discussion on the report? A benefit of presenting a report right at the end of a meeting is that nobody wants to talk about it.

With that—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Are we still on with David McGuinty on the 23rd?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes.

Pam.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I move that we adopt the report.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sure Mr. Oliphant would be delighted to second the motion.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Yes.

Do you miss me?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is there any other discussion?

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

It sounds like you miss me at the public safety committee.