Public Safety Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[John Paul]

Yes.

Yes, they should have been. The issue is that those police live there. They live in that area. They know the people who actually exercised a lot of these activities. If you live there, you usually understand the dynamics of a community that is around you.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

We've been told by authorities, by the commissioner and by the minister that they responded appropriately and that it's a provincial responsibility, etc. What do you say to that?

[John Paul]

Well, the issue with that is that the priorities of police in Nova Scotia are set by the provincial government, not by us.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

There is a lot to talk about, because we've taken on a big topic.

You've mentioned the pilot project in indigenous policing, perhaps tribal policing. Was that in a particular community, Mr. Paul?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Be very brief, please.

[John Paul]

It included five communities in Cape Breton. It was called Unama'ki Tribal Policing at the time. It basically hired indigenous police, trained at RCMP standards, to provide policing services to five communities in Cape Breton.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Can it work?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris—

[John Paul]

Yes, it can, fortunately.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Van Popta, you have four minutes, please.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses for joining us this evening and sharing your wisdom and experiences with us. It's very informative.

Mr. Paul, I'm very intrigued by your comments around lobster fishing and the Marshall decision. The Marshall decision was about 20 years ago. Other than the incident of racism that we saw recently, has there been improvement in indigenous-Crown relations since the Marshall decision, in your opinion?

[John Paul]

Everybody's talking, but it's not producing outcomes, basically. That's always an issue. If there are no outcomes or solutions coming out of negotiations or dialogue for 20 years, there has to be something wrong with the process.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

In the Marshall decision, the Supreme Court of Canada didn't actually define what a “moderate livelihood” is, leaving it up to the parties to negotiate that. Fill me in here. Have there been negotiations going on between indigenous peoples and the Crown since the Marshall decision as to what a moderate livelihood actually means?

[John Paul]

Yes, but it's a circular discussion. Some believe it's one thing and others believe it's another thing. The discussions have been going on for two decades.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

There's just not the political will to actually push it over the finish line. Is that what you're telling us?

[John Paul]

I haven't participated in any of those negotiations, so I don't know, but I think that really it is important to demonstrate progress. In the fishery, it's about relationship, safety and economic success.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Fair enough.

Mr. Chair, if I have a couple of minutes, I'll put a question to Mr. Sheppard. This has to do with the first nations policing act, something that we're talking about.

What things should this committee keep in mind when we're talking about a first nations policing act? What would be some key elements to its success?

[Christopher Sheppard]

Quickly—and I'll probably then pass it over to Jocelyn—61% of all indigenous people don't live on reserve, so if you're going to implement an act, it should probably make sure that it talks to the majority of indigenous people and also to Inuit Nunangat and Métis folks.

I'll pass it over to Jocelyn.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about a minute.

[Jocelyn Formsma]

That's the biggest thing for a first nations policing act. It's not going to really fall to a majority of the indigenous population.

I am from Nishnawbe Aski Nation. We've had the Nishnawbe Aski Police Service for a number of years, and I think it's a fantastic model. It's not without its challenges, for sure, especially in the beginning, but it's certainly been a big change-maker in our communities to have a police service that's owned and operated by our own.

I would like to know how we bring some of those elements into the urban space as well. A lot of our people are being policed by municipal and provincial police forces, and by the RCMP. If we're trying to get at all indigenous people, we're going to have to have a variety of responses. That's probably one that we're not best to speak to, but we'll definitely look at how we can ensure that some of those elements are brought into the urban spaces as well. I think that includes restorative justice initiatives and alternative justice initiatives focusing a lot on the prevention piece.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Van Popta.

Madam Damoff, you have four minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks, Chair, and thanks to all our witnesses for being here this afternoon.

Mr. Paul, you talked about indigenous oversight for policing. I'm assuming you're talking about first nations policing. Is that right?

[John Paul]

Yes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay.

I guess there are a few things. In Ontario, Six Nations has their own police service, but their complaints go to the Ontario SIU, the special investigations unit. For the RCMP, as you know, it goes to the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission, and that's a whole conversation that maybe we'll have time for. I don't know.

First nations policing is going to be unique, depending on the community. At least, I'm hoping that's the direction we're taking. What works in Six Nations and Nishnawbe Aski Nation may not work in Atlantic Canada.

[John Paul]

Right.