Public Safety Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[Michèle Audette]

Yes—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You're past your five minutes.

[Michèle Audette]

Well, it was seven, it was eight, and now it's five.

Okay, I'll do it in 30 seconds,

It is important to provide adequate funding and ensure the participation of indigenous women and men. I would say that there is a fine example of this in the region, here in Quebec, as we review our school programs to provide true and authentic education about the history of indigenous peoples.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you very much. Again, I apologize for interrupting, but we are way behind where we should be.

With that, Mr. Niemi, I will go to you now for your five minutes. It would be helpful if you could look up at the screen from time to time so that I could warn you about when your time is up.

You have five minutes, please.

Mr. Niemi, you are on mute.

[Fo Niemi, Executive Director, Center for Research-Action on Race Relations]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

There we are. This is the great learning of 2020—how to run the mute machine.

[Fo Niemi]

Precisely. We're catching up with the technology.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

I'm going to give my presentation in both languages, because we are in Quebec, but also in Canada, which has two official languages.

I'm the executive director of a small non-profit organization based in Montreal. We deal with race relations and have since the mid-1980s.

One of the areas we focus on is police-community relations, particularly police race relations. I'm very honoured to be asked to participate in the discussion dealing with systemic racism in policing. I would like to talk about it possibly in terms of law enforcement and public security in general, with some focus on the provincial but also the federal level as well.

Obviously, these days we have quite a lot of debate about the notion of systemic racism. I believe there's some kind of division as to whether it exists and what forms it takes. I'd like to stress right away that this notion is part of Canadian jurisprudence or case law. Several courts at different levels have recognized systemic racism.

I would just like to point out that, even in Quebec, our organization was behind one of the first decisions on systemic racism in Quebec in 2013, which dealt with racial discrimination in employment at the City of Montreal.

In addition, in Quebec, we have had court decisions on systemic gender-based discrimination and discrimination against women in employment. In 2010, there was the case of Gaz Métro. There is also the case of systemic discrimination based on disability, which is the subject of a class action in which our organization participates as a support organization, a class action that was certified by the Superior Court in 2017.

Therefore, we must acknowledge the premise that systemic discrimination exists, whether it is based on gender, disability or race.

It is difficult to say that it does not exist.

I want to mention right away that for those who deny systemic racism, which is now part of Canadian case law, it's just like denying climate change. It's a fact and it's a question of law, so let's move forward.

With regard to policing, I think one of the issues we have been involved in, particularly in the last 15 years, has been the area of racial profiling. We have cases before different courts. We help people file complaints with the human rights commission at the provincial level and with the police ethics commissioner at the provincial level as well. Some of the experiences we've had show us, I think, that there's a lot of action that legislators need to look at, all within the context of promoting access to justice for ordinary people who feel that they have been discriminated against and profiled by law enforcement officers.

As well, in terms of access to justice, there's a need to ensure that there is effective protection in the human rights system and in the police complaints system, the police ethics system, so that the system really works for people who feel their rights have been violated.

The third part we have to address is with regard to Jordan's principle. Excessive delay in the system, whether in dealing with human rights at any level or with the justice system at any level whatsoever, compromises the notion of effective protection. This is, by the way, a notion that is enshrined in many international instruments on human rights.

I'd like to raise the issue of bringing about systemic changes at the federal level so that we can find ways to ensure that people have access to justice and effective protection in dealing with federal law enforcement and public security.

Thank you very much.

We are ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Niemi.

With that, we'll go to five-minute rounds. First we have Mr. Motz, and then Mr. Lightbound, Madame Michaud and Mr. Harris.

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for your testimony, albeit abbreviated.

Mr. Niemi, I'll start with you. You indicated in your history that you've played an advisory role with the RCMP and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. Given your background in race relations and your advisory work and your advocacy against hate, can you provide advice on whether Canada's RCMP current oversight is sufficient, in your opinion?

[Fo Niemi]

Thank you to the member for the question.

With the experience and knowledge that we have, we believe that the structure as it is right now needs some clarification with regard to its mandate in dealing with race, racism or discrimination. There's a blur with regard to police misconduct and police standards, shall we say, and norms of practice and the whole issue of discrimination and human rights. I believe that the present commissioner's office is looking into it right now. We need more clarification.

Based on our experience and knowledge of the system, I believe we also need greater outreach and community engagement. Based on my experience with the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police in the 1990s, the police departments and police chiefs were very successful in reaching out to the communities because it takes leadership. It takes proactive leadership to reach out. Don't wait for problems to come to your door. The leadership of the person at the top can make a big difference.

Our experience with many people from different backgrounds is that the people are not against the police. People want to have effective police services—sensitive, accessible and friendly police services. They're ready to engage, but often there is a great distance between the police department and police leadership and the communities—the ordinary people—out there. That's the advice I would like to give to police chiefs and also to those who are concerned about promoting positive police-community relations.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much for that. I notice that our other witness, Ms. Audette, was nodding her head in agreement with your statements. I too would agree with them, given my background in policing.

We're talking here about this issue with the RCMP and the management of the RCMP. They're centralized. They have top-down decision-making processes. Most decisions happen here in Ottawa. They're not local in the community. They move around often.

I would like both of you to answer this. Do you think that the reality of where we're at with the current structure of the RCMP contributes to and facilitates some of the racist outcomes that we have in those policing communities?

[Fo Niemi]

I would like to defer to my friend Ms. Audette.

The floor is yours, Ms. Audette.

[Michèle Audette]

Thank you very much, Mr. Niemi.

I would add that there is certainly good will on the part of individuals in the RCMP, as in the other 300 police forces. The fact remains that the structures may bring about what we have been denouncing for a very long time, namely the much-touted systemic racism and systemic discrimination. This has been proven.

In terms of trust in the RCMP, let's remember that the RCMP was created to remove indigenous children from the territories when residential schools were imposed. There may still be old ghosts out there. All of this is fresh in our minds. We are ill at ease and there is mistrust.

As you so rightly said, Mr. Niemi, there is also the top-down attitude.

I will walk beside Mr. Niemi, echoing that we want real police officers, men and women who have the instinct to protect us, to save our lives and to ensure a way of life that helps us feel safe in our communities.

I don't think a few hours of training will be enough. It requires deep reflection within the institution itself, within the Sûreté du Québec or other police forces. We need to rework the training by including the beauty of our communities' cultural diversity.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much.

I just have one—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz. You have eight seconds left. I'm sure that your colleague will be happy to pick up that eight seconds.

With that, Mr. Lightbound, you have five minutes, please.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to our witnesses for being here today.

I'm very pleased to see you again, Ms. Audette. My question is for you.

First, thank you for your work as commissioner of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. My question is about one of the commission's recommendations. In your testimony, you mentioned the issue of who is responsible. One of the recommendations is to have a civilian indigenous organization in charge, whatever the jurisdiction, of police misconduct and abuse that may have occurred across the country.

Can you elaborate on this recommendation?

How would it improve the work of police officers?

[Michèle Audette]

This can send two different messages. After hearing testimony from several decades, it seems that there is a very tight culture and that people protect each other. It's about creating an environment, a place where a person feels comfortable to complain and report a situation, where they will be taken seriously, will not be judged and will not be discriminated against, as described in the commission's report.

I think a number of organizations are going to have a resource like that. Quebec has the Bureau des enquêtes indépendantes. It may seem imperfect, but it is already a very important resource for indigenous and non-indigenous experts, former police officers, investigators, and people from the communities to see how the work is done and propose recommendations to constantly become better and do better.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I have another question for you about the last point you raised at the very end of your testimony about revising the curriculum to improve education on indigenous history.

Could you elaborate on that? You piqued my curiosity.

[Michèle Audette]

The Government of Canada, the provinces and the territories have been mentioning this for a long time, particularly during the federal-provincial meetings I attended from 2000 until recently. Everyone agrees that history in general, with a capital “H”, needs to be reworked, with all its diversity and complexity.

The provinces and the province of Quebec are responsible for education, but I believe that the Government of Canada also has a role to play in indigenous issues and the Indian Act.

How is it that in 2020, in our elementary and secondary schools, as well as our universities, we are still feeding our leaders of today and tomorrow with a history that is not appropriate?

Indigenous young people are not the only ones asking us this; all young people are asking us. Young people from all different cultures, backgrounds and origins say they want to understand. For me, this is the strongest resource to slowly eliminate prejudice, ignorance, racism, discrimination through gaining an understanding. We would also restore pride to our nations, because we have erased too much of history, which is our cultural identity.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you very much.

My last question is for Mr. Niemi.

You rightly mentioned that we cannot change what we don't recognize, let alone what we don't know.

In your experience, where are the biggest gaps in data in identifying systemic racism in our institutions?

[Fo Niemi]

We just have to look at the complaints that are filed, whether with human rights commissions or with commissions that receive complaints about police misconduct.

I must point out a caveat. Most human rights commissions, at least the Commission des droits de la personne et des droits de la jeunesse in Quebec, do not have policies on systemic racism. So when complaints related to systemic racism are filed, we don't know how they will be handled. I think it's imperative that we establish policies or guidelines to better deal with complaints and then determine the documentation process.

We have a snapshot of the data from the Canadian Human Rights Commission. For example, it is a little difficult to identify the complaints on systemic racism, particularly with respect to services, because there is also systemic discrimination in employment or in services. I believe that the Canadian Human Rights Act, among others, needs to be amended eventually because section 5 of the current act does not allow for a clear systemic approach to services. Section 10 of the act does allow for a systemic approach to the classification of discrimination in employment.

Finally, on the quantitative level, I believe that we must find a better way—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're unfortunately going to have to leave it there, Mr. Lightbound.

Madame Michaud, you have five minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for accepting the invitation, particularly Ms. Audette. I'm sure her experience will be valuable in the work of our committee.

Ms. Audette, I would like to ask you about the concept of intersectionality, which we have heard less about in this study. When I think of urban indigenous women who find themselves experiencing homelessness, poverty and addiction or mental health issues, I find that intersectionality is not sufficiently taken into account in the approach of the police officers who interact with them.

I would like to hear what you have to say about this. Perhaps you could tell us more from what you have heard.

[Michèle Audette]

Yes, certainly. I could also try to explain what the police officers I met recently told me. Sometimes, the hope is that they will be super police officers who act as social workers, front-line workers, psychosocial workers, addiction specialists, and so on.

In indigenous communities, they must be very knowledgeable, because individuals, often women, have a complex assortment of major social and mental health issues. So if we try to tell police officers who have chosen this career that they will also have to consider spiritual and psychosocial aspects and mental health issues, which does not come naturally to them—not to say that they don't have emotions—it might be more difficult.

The intersectional approach is a value—what we have long called the holistic approach—and this means that not everyone can have the expertise. So, personally, I'm comfortable with the proposal that police officers be accompanied by experts in the field, in order to respond appropriately and establish relationships of trust, because it's urgent. So, when a police officer interacts with an indigenous woman, whether it is a legal issue or not, at the end of the day, he will know that he has done his best to give her a chance.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

This proposal has actually come up a few times in the course of this study. I think it is appropriate for police officers to be accompanied by social workers in the field.

Do you think that would be a possible avenue for police training? If not, after their training, what else should be done?