Public Safety Committee on April 18th, 2024

[Félixpier Bergeron]

I could go back and find out if you want me to. It's a process of investigation that belongs to CBSA and the police of jurisdiction who did the investigation. I could go back and tell you which container came in on which truck with which driver or on which train and in which batch. I can go back and find that information.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I know that containers are loaded in all manner of ways and in all manner of locations. In a previous life, I worked on a walnut farm. I've seen these big sea containers loaded with raw walnuts. They are closed, and then they are shipped off. Yes, they are tagged. There's a manifest to say that, yes, this container is full of walnuts. That container, once it has been sealed, is then in the hands of a number of different actors to get it from where it was loaded to the port and then onto a ship.

What kind of liability does a transport company, like CN Rail or a trucking company, have or their drivers or railway operators have to ensure that what they're carrying is what's on the manifest?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

As far as I know, they don't have liability because the container is sealed.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Would it be preferable, from your point of view, to maybe give a little bit more responsibility to those different actors?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

Off the bat, I couldn't answer that question, but I would go back to my earlier statement that we need to make accountable the person who put the seal on the container. If the seal is not broken all the way up to the port, there's nothing that happened with what's inside of it. The important thing is, when the seal is put on, who signed for it. Who's responsible for vouching as to what's inside the container? Is it walnuts or cars? That's the weakest point in the link right now, and there is no responsibility for that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

We're going to move to Mr. Kurek.

We're reducing it to two and a half minutes, Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thanks very much.

I appreciate our witnesses being here and talking about the conduit side of things.

I want to continue on with that line of questioning.

You're saying that there's no accountability for who's putting the seal on that container that says what is or is not in it. How do we fix that?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

I'm not the best person to answer that question. Unfortunately, it has to be referred to CBSA or the other agencies that govern those acts. The manifest and all the information for export is governed by CBSA.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Do you have anything to add, Ms. Gill?

[Anita Gill]

No.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I'm curious if you could share your observations. We've seen a proliferation of auto theft over the last number of years. In your observations with your law enforcement partners, has law enforcement been able to keep up with this proliferation of auto theft?

[Julien Baudry]

It is not for us to assess the performance of police services. That said, we must admit that, over the past year, we have seen a resurgence in the number of police actions and seizures. Every time a vehicle is seized, whether it is at the port or before it gets there, it is good news for us. We will continue to support the police. However, we do not have any information that would allow us to measure or evaluate their performance.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

When it comes to being able to solve some of these problems, I think a lot of Canadians would be surprised that, when you cross an international border, every vehicle is checked. When you go through an airport, everybody goes through a security scanner. It's a different context in a port, but how do we make sure that we can increase these measures? You're talking about what's on a manifest versus what's in a container. How do we make sure that you are given the tools and that there is approval for new technology? What steps are taken?

Given that I'm probably close to out of time, I would invite our two port authorities to provide suggestions to the committee to make sure that this committee understands, from your perspective, as self-admittedly you're the conduit, what barriers can be removed to ensure that we can stop these vehicles from leaving Canada and going to other jurisdictions where they're being sold, and stop this crime from taking place?

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

Mr. McKinnon online, go ahead, please.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to carry on with this matter of seals, as Mr. MacGregor and others have focused on.

Are these seals individually identifiable?

I'll ask Ms. Gill, please.

[Anita Gill]

I will let Félixpier answer that question. I'm not as familiar with the seal processes.

Thank you.

[Félixpier Bergeron]

I'll be happy to answer that question.

Yes, they are. They have alphanumerical numbers, but there are different types of seals. There are wire seals, chain seals, high-security seals, plastic seals and paper seals. They all have unique numbers.

That might be a fault in the system that probably needs to be reassessed, which is to standardize seals or something, because the only thing we have on the manifesto—the legal paper—is the number. It doesn't say what type of seal it is.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Who are the people who are able to put seals on a container? Apparently, once the seals are on there, it has a certain legal significance.

Do they have to be bonded entities?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

That's something the CBSA must answer. I am not familiar with that aspect.

As I said earlier, the accountability part is not very strong in the acts or regulations right now. That's something that needs to be better answered by the CBSA.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

What I'm getting to is that perhaps there's a way of examining the seals themselves to determine their origin and to see whether these origins are problematic in terms of stolen vehicles that have already been detected.

I don't know if the ports can do that. Maybe law enforcement has to drill into this.

Could you make any suggestions for making the person who puts on the seal more responsible?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

Like I said earlier, the act or regulations have to be revised. Right now, there's no accountability for that.

The act or regulations require seals to be put on and to signify that on the paperwork, but that's the end of it.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I think that's my time.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

That's the end of our time with these witnesses.

We appreciate your testimony here today and we thank you for coming.

We'll take a break for a couple of minutes and get ready for our next witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

I would like to welcome our second panel of witnesses.

In person, from Service de police de la Ville de Montréal, we have Yannick Desmarais, commander, section head. From Sûreté du Québec, we have Michel Patenaude, chief inspector. Online by video conference, from Intact Insurance, we have Guillaume Lamy, senior vice-president, personal lines, Canadian operations.

We're going to give you each up to five minutes for opening remarks, after which we will proceed to rounds of questions.

Chief Inspector Patenaude, would you like to go first?