Public Safety Committee on April 29th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 104 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on October 23, 2023, the committee is resuming its study on the growing problem of car thefts in Canada.

Before we begin, I would like to remind all members and other meeting participants in the room of the following important preventive measures. To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in-person participants are reminded to keep their earpieces away from all microphones at all times.

As indicated in the communication from the Speaker to all members on Monday, April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents. All earpieces have been replaced by a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black, whereas the former earpieces were grey. Please only use an approved black earpiece. By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of a meeting. When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down in the middle of the sticker for this purpose, which you will find on your table as indicated. Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. The room layout has been adjusted to increase the distance between microphones and reduce the chance of feedback from an earpiece. These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. Thank you all for your co-operation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I'm informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of members and witnesses. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses for our first panel.

From the Canadian Automobile Association, we have, in person, Ian Jack, vice-president, public affairs; and by video conference, Elliott Silverstein, director of government relations, insurance. From the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia, by video conference as well, we have Shabnem Afzal, director, road safety; and Kelly Aimers, chief actuary.

Up to five minutes will be given for opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions. I now invite Ms. Aimers and Ms. Afzal to make the opening statements, please.

[Kelly Aimers, Chief Actuary, Insurance Corporation of British Columbia]

Thank you for welcoming ICBC to appear before this committee.

My name is Kelly Aimers, and I am the chief actuary at the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia, or ICBC. With me is my colleague, Shabnem Afzal, who is ICBC's director of road safety.

I would first like to recognize that we are at ICBC's head office in North Vancouver, British Columbia, on the traditional ancestral indigenous territories, both unceded and treated, of the Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh first nations.

ICBC is a provincial Crown corporation mandated by the Insurance Corporation Act, the Insurance Act and the Motor Vehicle Act to provide universal, compulsory auto insurance to drivers in British Columbia. In addition, ICBC provides British Columbians with optional auto insurance products, vehicle registration services, driver's licence services. We work with external stakeholders on road safety projects and auto crime initiatives.

I would like to applaud the work of this committee and all of the participants. We support the ongoing efforts to date and look forward to enhancing initiatives to prevent vehicles from being stolen within Canada.

According to statistics provided by B.C.'s integrated municipal provincial auto crime team, otherwise referred to as IMPACT, in 2023, B.C. had its lowest number of auto theft incidents across the province since 2018. B.C. had 7,538 auto theft incidents reported to police, a 10% decrease from 2022, with declines posted across the province.

Vehicle theft is covered under optional comprehensive insurance from ICBC or other private insurers.

In 2023, of those 7,500 auto theft incidents reported to police, 6,255 of them were reported to ICBC, with an average cost of $5,700. This average cost also includes the deductible for a stolen vehicle claim reported to ICBC. While there has been a slight decrease in stolen vehicle claims reported to ICBC from 2022, the average cost of these vehicles has increased.

While ICBC has the majority of the optional insurance market, I want to emphasize that these are just claims reported to ICBC. Claims can also be reported to other optional insurance carriers, and some motorists may not even have optional insurance. Further, these preliminary financial figures and incident counts may continue to settle as claims are closed.

With that, I would like to pass it to my colleague, Shabnem Afzal, who is ICBC's director of road safety.

[Shabnem Afzal, Director, Road Safety, Insurance Corporation of British Columbia]

Thank you.

ICBC has partnered with the B.C. government on the integrated municipal provincial auto crime team, or IMPACT, as Kelly was just mentioning. The mandate of this team is to fight auto crime. We've partnered to successfully target chronic auto theft offenders and organized auto crime groups since 2004, the inception of IMPACT. IMPACT heads the successful provincial bait car program, too, which also targets chronic auto crime offenders across the province. This year, 2024, marks the 20th anniversary of the creation of the integrated municipal provincial auto crime team, and ICBC has been a funding partner since the inception of IMPACT.

ICBC also has a dedicated special investigation unit, otherwise known as the SIU, and we have an officer from our unit attached to the IMPACT team. They act as a liaison with other law enforcement in B.C. as well as the other ICBC offices that are dedicated to the identification of cloned or “re-vinned” vehicles. Having these dedicated offices obviously helps us protect the integrity and minimize the risk of the vehicle registration process in B.C.

To further combat vehicle crimes, ICBC's SIU detection unit employs a dedicated team of specialists who leverage data and analytics to identify concerning theft claims, and ICBC has an internal fraud analytics model that uses data and natural language processing to identify concerning claims for review.

We partner with local police and stakeholders for auto crime prevention initiatives such as providing steering wheel locks and preventing catalytic converter thefts. ICBC also provides insurance incentives to encourage customers to use these passive electronic immobilizers to protect their vehicle.

With that, I would like to defer to the committee and answer any questions that you may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you to you both for your remarks.

I now invite Mr. Jack or Mr. Silverstein, please.

[Ian Jack, Vice-President, Public Affairs, Canadian Automobile Association]

It'll be me, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much.

Good afternoon.

Mr. Chair and honourable members, thank you for inviting us to share our views on the effort to combat auto theft.

My name is Ian Jack. I'm the vice-president of public affairs for CAA's national office here in Ottawa. My colleague, Elliott Silverstein, our director of government relations for insurance, joins me virtually today to help answer your questions.

Together, CAA and CAA Insurance represent the interests of 7.1 million motorists who are members of our not-for-profit association, whether that be AMA, BCAA or CAA, and tens of thousands of auto insurance clients whose policies are with CAA Insurance.

As such, we believe that we bring a unique perspective to the issue of auto theft informed by the practical, mental and financial costs of the issue to all Canadians.

Most of you will be familiar with the brand.

Founded in 1913, the Canadian Automobile Association, CAA for short, is a national organization representing eight automobile clubs and providing members with roadside assistance, insurance services, savings and discounts, and travel services.

The CAA Insurance Company was established in 1974 and, since then, has provided dependable, fair and trustworthy service to protect Canadians and what matters most to them.

CAA was pleased to be the only consumer advocate invited to the federal government's February auto theft summit to represent vehicle owners, who are the first line of defence in preventing auto theft and the most impacted in their daily lives when a theft does occur. The summit was just a first step and now, nearly three months later, we are still waiting on some key elements of the national strategy that was promised. The subject is no less urgent today. We need to get going, and not just with the starter's pistol but with concrete and short but reasonable timelines for results.

As you know, the costs of vehicle theft are rising astronomically. There have been $1.2 billion in additional payouts in 2022, and these costs are being passed on to consumers in the form of higher premiums and, in some cases, vehicle surcharges of up to $500 if you happen to be unlucky enough to own one of the top 10 most stolen vehicles. We believe that these costs will be significantly higher for 2023.

To put this in perspective, the impact of auto theft for the insurance industry is the equivalent of a flood or a tornado, except it is occurring year-round and with no end in sight.

CAA is concerned that if the rate of vehicle theft is not brought under control, auto-related costs will continue to rise for drivers already struggling with affordability issues. Insurance premiums, deductibles and overall costs are likely to go up for everyone if auto theft rates remain high.

We would like to underscore that soaring auto theft rates are more than just a cost pressure for consumers, as important as that is.

Victims of auto theft lose their means of getting to and from work and, occasionally, important appointments.

It can mean waiting months to get a vehicle replaced, or having to trade down in this inflationary market in order to get a vehicle. It has a mental toll as well. We are pleased with the actions taken to date by law enforcement and provincial and federal governments, but we need commitments, with reasonable but aggressive timelines, to further step up action to stem the flow of auto theft.

Specifically, CAA calls on the government to, first, empower the CBSA to do more enforcement at ports, specifically the Port of Montreal, by upping boots on the ground, installing cargo container scanners and prioritizing random inspections on exports, which today are virtually non-existent.

We call on the government to launch with a tight timeline an update on vehicle anti-theft standards, which are now more than 15 years old. This technology is being exploited by criminals to easily steal vehicles. CAA has pressed for a quick consultation period so that the regulations can be revised with minimal reasonable delay. Owners should not be left to incur the cost of installing expensive aftermarket anti-theft solutions to make up for inaction by the industry.

We call on the government to increase minimum penalties in the Criminal Code for repeat offenders. CAA was pleased to see that the budget acknowledged the need to enhance these penalties, but again, we would like to see action now, not in months or years.

We call on the government to deliver more funding and better coordination and intelligence sharing among law enforcement agencies. We have already seen the fruits of this in recent weeks. We need to see more of it.

In this regard, we need to re-examine the authorities and responsibilities given to rail police in such places as Mississauga, and the resources that the CBSA devotes to these areas.

Let us be clear: We understand that everyone has a part to play in combatting auto theft, including provinces, municipalities, local police, manufacturers and others. More consumer awareness is also needed. That is on us.

I can assure you that we are active on several fronts.

Simple tips like locking car doors, parking in the garage if you have one and using a Faraday pouch for your key fob at night can help prevent theft. These are messages that we are passing on.

With that short introduction, Mr. Chair, I will close. We welcome your questions.

Once again, thank you for inviting us to meet with the committee today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Jack.

We will go right into our first round of questioning.

Mr. Caputo, I believe you're up first.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My intention is to ask questions for a few minutes and then to move my motion, which was provided last week.

Thank you to all of you for being here. As a B.C. MP, I thank and welcome our fine people from ICBC. I also welcome and thank very much the people who are here in person.

I'm relatively new to the committee. I'm still kind of getting a handle on all this.

Mr. Jack, I heard you speak, and the question I'm curious about is this: How did we get here? How did we get so complacent? You described this as “the equivalent of a flood or a tornado”. I was quite happy to hear that you have some tangibles, but how did we actually get here, to something that really is at a crisis level?

[Ian Jack]

Well, it's interesting; we understand when we look back and when we do research that there was a lot of auto theft in this country 10 or 15 years ago. I think a lot of emphasis was put on it. Since then, that emphasis has gone. That worked, and then the emphasis went away.

I think organized criminal gangs are like a water leak in a house. They go to the path of easiest resistance. I think for a variety of reasons, auto theft has now become fairly easy. We have very lax standards that are not at all modern. We have iPod-era standards for anti-theft devices in vehicles right now. It's easy to get into a vehicle. It appears quite easy to put them into containers at rail yards and trucking containers, where there doesn't appear to be enough oversight from our CBSA officials looking at exports. It appears very easy to get them onto ships and out.

I will note as well a couple of what were, to us, very interesting pieces of testimony. I can't remember if it was IBC or Équité that pointed out that in Canada, the Canadian rules are such that you can change a ship manifest after it sets sail. That makes no sense. Nothing should be changing inside a container after it sets sail. You can claim that it's dishwashers and then change that when you get into waters: Oh, by the way, it's actually cars—bye.

That makes no sense. These are rules that should be changed. There's also a 72-hour rule that we'd like to see, one that the U.S. has, that says you can't change the manifest within 72 hours of shipping. That makes sense to us as well.

I would say that a whole series of things happened to lead us to where we are today.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It seems to me there a lot of tangible issues, and there are some regulatory issues relating to anti-theft devices and coming with the times. Then there are the tangible issues with prevention, compliance and enforcement. I assume that at your level you've probably had some discussions with the CBSA and groups like that. Is that accurate?

[Ian Jack]

Yes, we absolutely have.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

How have your suggestions been met, when you met with the CBSA?

[Ian Jack]

The opening line was that they don't really do export inspections; they worry about imports. That's fair enough, but I think the clear message from us—from this committee, I would hope, and, I believe, from some government officials, at least—has been that this is not good enough and we need to do a lot better.

I do know that some dollars have been put aside for the CBSA for that. However, I think we need a mentality shift, and they do actually need some dollars. CAA has done tours of both the Montreal and Halifax ports in recent months and met with port officials. They have described the CBSA inspection routines, which don't really seem fit for the 21st century, if I may say so, although I'm no expert. They need more and better facilities, and they need to be told to do more, frankly, on exports.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

I believe Mr. Kurek will be replacing me, but with that, I will move the motion for which notice was given last Thursday, I believe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

You have two motions, Mr. Caputo. Which one are you referring to?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm sorry. It's the notice of motion that starts with “Given that continued instances of repeat offences”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Do you want to read the whole motion, Mr. Caputo, just to make sure?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

This is dated Friday, April 26, 2024. I move:

That, given continued instances of repeat offences while criminals are out on bail, including the case of a man who was arrested for attempted carjacking, was let out on bail and was arrested for carjacking again the next day,

and that in the news release about this incident, the Victoria Police Department identified Bill C-75, the revolving door bill, as the reason this individual was released to then go on to commit the same offence within a day of the first,

the committee concur with the findings of the Victoria Police Department that the Liberal government's Bill C-75, the revolving door bill, is adding to the challenges police departments are facing when combatting auto theft when offenders are expeditiously released back into the streets.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Caputo.

Mr. Genuis, please go ahead.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank my colleague, Mr. Caputo, for putting forward this motion and for his excellent work on this important issue.

I appreciate the opportunity to say a few words about the sad trajectory that rates of crime have taken in this country in the last nine years—in the time that Justin Trudeau has been Prime Minister.

We have seen how this NDP-Liberal-Trudeau experiment of catch-and-release policies in the area of bail has simply failed. We have many instances where, let's say, the same people are committing crimes over and over again. Someone commits a crime in the morning, they're released on bail and they proceed to commit another crime in the afternoon, evening and so on.

This is not a coincidence that all of a sudden Justin Trudeau becomes the Prime Minister and suddenly people's disposition towards criminal activity changes. It's a consequence of policy decisions that were made by the government that allow repeat violent offenders to have easier access to bail and to go out and commit crimes that harm our community.

That is why I think this motion is important. It's a motion that was put on notice—and I hope will have the support of colleagues—that simply supports the findings of the Victoria Police Department and recognizes the failures in the Liberal government's Bill C-75, the revolving door bill, as it relates to bail. The motion responds to and recognizes the determinations of that police department that this revolving door bill is causing significant problems. It's making life more difficult for police officers and for everyday citizens. It's making life easier for repeat violent criminals.

I appreciate the clarity of the motion and the fact that it responds to an evident reality in the government's record on crime. Crime statistics tell this story very clearly. Crime was dropping up until 2015 and then rose dramatically after 2015. We all know what happened in 2015.

It's been nine years of failed NDP-Liberal experiments on crime that haven't worked. It's time for a new approach.

I'll leave my comments there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Mr. Kurek, please.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I appreciate the motion that my colleague, Mr. Caputo, has moved.

Let me share for a brief moment some reflections that are not my own, which I heard over the course of the constituency week from some law enforcement professionals in my constituency. To make sure that I protect them, I won't get too specific as to where they're from and which police force they're a part of. Suffice it to say, they police a large rural area and part of the region that I have the honour of representing.

The reason it's so relevant is that it relates to the catch-and-release policies that see a very small number of offenders—in many cases dangerous, violent offenders—being arrested time and time again for the same crimes. You have small communities.... In the area that I represent, there are several hundred people who are terrorized by a small group of people. Everybody knows who is perpetrating these crimes. The police know that is in fact the case. It is so frustrating, and in fact demoralizing, to our hard-working men and women who wear police uniforms of various departments.

I know this motion specifically references the Victoria Police Department and that's very valid, but it's an amplification of the message that we hear from so many law enforcement professionals. These are individuals who put their lives on the line every day to keep our communities safe, yet they feel like the forces are pushing back against them being able to do their jobs with the catch-and-release policies like those that we've seen from Bill C-75.

Whether it's in small towns across rural Alberta, in the north, in the Maritimes or in our big cities where we see cars sometimes the same day or within a couple of days being shipped overseas, this is a huge concern. I suggest it requires the continued urgency of this committee, especially as we are hearing from those who are on the front lines.

I cannot emphasize that enough. Those who are on the front lines are facing the direct consequences of this. I could not imagine a more difficult career in today's world than being a law enforcement professional, a police officer, with all of the pressures. They have policies of their government working against their ability to do their jobs and protect the communities where they live and work and that they care so deeply about.

There is much more that I could say on this subject. I would simply say, to my colleagues from other parties, let's treat this with the urgency that Canadians are demanding this committee treat it with. Let's pass this motion. It's a small step to acknowledge some of the urgency in how we can address auto theft, and specifically the issues surrounding those repeat violent offenders. Hundreds of hours of police work go into those arrests, yet the offenders are being turned out within hours. In many cases, they are then back out on the streets committing those same crimes, endangering our communities and traumatizing individuals. Quite frankly, Canadians deserve better than what they're getting.

I hope that this committee seizes this opportunity to take a serious look at this issue with some of the information that is being brought forward by the Victoria Police Department, to amplify that message that we are hearing from so many across our country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Ms. Michaud, please.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I feel far away from you today, but I understand that it helps keep our interpreters healthy and safe, and without them, we could not do our jobs day in and day out. I'd like to thank the House technicians for implementing this measure.

The motion put forward by my Conservative colleague pertains to a crime in which an individual was arrested for carjacking. The Bloc Québécois is obviously very concerned about any offence or situation related to the rise in auto thefts across the country—which is why I proposed the study in the first place. We are in the middle of the study, and we have witnesses here today to discuss that very issue. They've taken time out of their day to speak with us and share their recommendations. Out of respect for them, I would like us to get back to the study.

If I'm not mistaken, Bill C-75 was debated, and voted on, in the 42nd Parliament. It received royal assent in June 2019, so I don't think we need to vote on conclusions that tie back to a bill from a previous Parliament. If we can vote on the motion, we can get back to the study, and I'll be voting against the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Mr. MacGregor, go ahead, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I don't really have any skin in the game for this one. I'm speaking as someone who did vote against Bill C-75. I was present in the 42nd Parliament during the Liberal majority government.

I just find it curious that this motion is being brought forward when we're actually in the middle of a study on car theft. Questions come to mind.

Why is this motion so necessary when we have plenty of opportunity during the middle of this particular study to ask questions?

Has anyone thought of bringing in the Victoria Police Department or inviting them as a witness so we could ask questions? There's a lot of language in this motion that is asking us to go on the good faith of the Conservatives, which in some cases is in short supply.

I just wanted to make those observations that there were probably other opportunities and more conciliatory ways of bringing this forward during the middle of a study on car thefts.