Evidence of meeting #127 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was india.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Moninder Singh  Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council
Balpreet Singh  Legal Counsel, World Sikh Organization of Canada
Serge Granger  Director School of Applied Politics, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual
Wesley Wark  Senior Fellow, Centre for International Governance Innovation, As an Individual

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

I'm at only four minutes and 30 seconds.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Okay. Our timing is a little off here.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Doug Shipley Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON

I'm sorry about that. I was just about at the end. The last point was to establish arson as an aggravating factor for the charge of extortion. You had mentioned that arson is definitely part of this extortion.

Both the Liberals and the NDP voted against what was put forward by our Conservative colleague Tim Uppal.

Do you not think that having harsher penalties would make your community feel a little safer in these instances?

I know we're almost out of time, so maybe I'll just go to Mr. Balpreet Singh and ask for his comments on it.

4:40 p.m.

Legal Counsel, World Sikh Organization of Canada

Balpreet Singh

I'm not completely familiar with the motion.

In theory, I think it's absolutely true that there need to be penalties for this sort of behaviour. One of the things mentioned before was why Canada is a soft target. The reason is that you can engage in espionage here. You can pass names on and video on, and surveil people. There are no penalties for it. Now, Germany has tried Indian agents. That has had, I believe, a chilling effect.

Here in Canada, there are absolutely no consequences for the type of behaviour India is engaging in.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

We'll now go to Mr. Gaheer for five minutes.

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I'm a bit disappointed by the line of questioning by my colleague Mr. Shipley. We know mandatory minimum penalties are not going to stop the Indian state from engaging in the activities they're doing. We also increased the maximum penalty for extortion. Obviously, that's not going to stop India, but it is something our government implemented.

I want to thank both witnesses for appearing in this committee.

Whenever the Prime Minister speaks about the issue of Indian interference in Canada—both last year and again this year—and whenever the RCMP speaks about it, we see this flood of misinformation and disinformation emanating from India's media sources and government. Can you speak about the dangers of that disinformation? I can look at that and see the disinformation for what it is. However, the worry I have is that, when it is quoted by international sources, it receives a primer of legitimacy.

I want both of you to talk about that.

Balpreet, maybe you can go first?

4:40 p.m.

Legal Counsel, World Sikh Organization of Canada

Balpreet Singh

This is a real problem. We see Indian narratives parroted by western media and Canadian media. That was the case during the 2018 Trudeau visit to India. This narrative of so-called Sikh extremism was used to completely taint the entire visit, but it was based on a false Indian narrative and planted stories.

Currently, we are seeing many similar things. India creates a narrative and puts out false news. That, frankly, puts Canadian lives at risk. We have seen how an individual here in Canada—I won't use his name, but he has absolutely nothing to do with any sort of extremism, or anything else—had his address, name and picture put into Indian media as a so-called Sikh extremist. He's afraid of living at home, but he can't sell his home because the house is now tainted property.

Disinformation is absolutely crazy. I think Canada needs to take steps to point it out, because, you know, Canadian consumers of this are also very numerous. Indian media is read by Canadians, as well, so something needs to be done about that.

4:40 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

To add to this, disinformation and misinformation also lead to the polarizing of communities within Canada, which is a very unfortunate situation we're finding ourselves in now. This is not a fight between Sikhs and Hindus in India. This is not a fight between Sikhs and another community, or another community and another community. This is now a struggle for those who believe in the sovereignty of this country and in protecting it from rogue actors like India. That is the actual fight we're facing right now. Misinformation and disinformation polarize communities. There are hate crimes being committed. We're seeing a rise of those against the Sikh community, as well. This is why I mentioned it in one of the four asks that we'll be taking forward around resources to strengthen communities and build those bridges again.

While there are opportunities for media outlets to run with misinformation and disinformation, the impact we're seeing on the ground is that there is polarization—clashes among larger diaspora communities in Surrey, Brampton and other spaces. We're seeing them polarized. We're seeing hate crimes on the rise against the Sikh community, because India's misinformation and disinformation are not just throughout their media but also on social media. Social media, as you all know, is a horrendous space for people to become ill-informed and misinformed very quickly.

I think the threat of it is very real. Countering it, I think, has been a huge problem for us in Canada.

Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON

You both raised a great point. Thank you for that.

Can you speak a bit about the level of infiltration the Sikh community feels or knows about that has been happening in Canada, or in other countries where there is a big Sikh diaspora?

I referenced a Washington Post article that made reference to a news outlet in Germany that ran a pro-Sikh separatist paper. The owner of the paper was charged by the German government because they were then leaking information about their sources to the Indian government itself. On the face of it, they were pro-separatist, but behind the scenes, they were leaking information to the Indian government. They were charged by the German government with a criminal penalty.

Can you speak about that level of infiltration you might hear in conversations, or that you've maybe seen?

4:45 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

The infiltration starts in our gurdwaras, in our places of worship, in our community organizations, and it influences and impacts Punjabi-based media and also politicians from Punjabi Sikh backgrounds who are actually entering any level of government as well. The way India does that is through its consulate offices, the coercion and visa denials. You have the same individuals who are acting as Indian proxies. If somebody's visa is denied, for example, they are told to come into the Indian consulate. They go to the Indian consulate through a middle person, who is more than likely the individual who has provided enough intelligence to get that person's visa cancelled in the first place, and then, when they are reissued a visa, they are made to bend the knee.

Balpreet Singh spoke about signing certain types of letters, denouncing Sikh separatism or the Khalistan movement, or on the flip side, promoting Mr. Modi and basically his fascist regime in India. These are individuals who are usually within community leadership spaces and roles, so I think those are the individuals they target more than anyone. The infiltration runs deep through media, ethnic media, through gurdwaras and places of worship, Sikh organizations, all the way through to politicians in any level of government who are trying to make a difference. I think India moves to counter and influence—

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

I'm sorry, sir. I'm going to have to cut you off there. Thank you.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Singh, in September 2023, the Sikh Press Association published a press release on its social networks that came from your organization, calling for more transparency from the government and more seriousness from the opposition parties. It was called “Canada's Political Parties Must Demonstrate Leadership and Unity to Confront the Threat of Indian Foreign Interference”.

I have a great deal of respect for my parliamentary colleagues, but it isn't uncommon for the majority of them use their speaking time to take jabs at the other parties, criticizing what the government is or isn't doing, what the Conservative Party should or shouldn't be doing, and so on. Even the New Democratic Party has followed suit on several occasions.

Do you think that we've learned our lesson and taken things more seriously since this press release was published?

Instead, do you think that, even if this issue is studied and a serious, independent public inquiry into foreign interference has been launched by the RCMP, politicians could show more unity and less partisanship in dealing with this problem?

4:45 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

I believe we have made progress since then.

I will say very quickly, about the political jockeying and positioning that goes on between political parties, that we're not a part of that, nor is that a reason why we're in this room. We see it. We watch it, and we know what's going on. We're trying to stick to the topic, always, and I have no partisan views towards any political leader or political party, for that matter.

To your question, I believe we have made progress. Should we have made it a long time ago? Probably. I think there have been a lot of failures during the last decade or so that have led us to this point. I think that's the biggest thing that we have to look at: what got us here in the first place. I think there have been failures along the way and gaps along the way, and we have to be better. But I think in the last year or so, we have seen movement. We have seen some things from our law enforcement agencies. We have seen big steps with the expulsion of diplomats. I believe there have been positive steps for sure.

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We go now to Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes, please.

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to ask a question of both of you. I'll start with you, Mr. Moninder Singh.

The Parliament of Canada came together in quite a rapid fashion in the summer to pass Bill C-70, which updated a lot of our laws, including bringing the CSIS Act up to speed to operate in a digital world. There were also some significant amendments to the security of information act to really provide a lot more legislative flexibility in targeting clandestine foreign interference operations. I know from CBC News, from some of their sources, they have reported that India's clandestine operations remain largely in place and that it may be some time before we dismantle those.

When you've seen what Canada's Parliament has done and the fact that there is now this attention on the Indian government, are you optimistic that we are on a path toward finally confronting this? Do you remain optimistic, given all of your personal experiences?

4:50 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

I think hope and optimism aren't an option: Action is the only way. I think that being hopeful and optimistic is just something that's ingrained within us: being in high spirits all the time no matter what we're facing as individuals, as Sikhs. I will carry that with me always, but that doesn't resolve the fact that action has to be taken.

When we see certain things happening and then we have reports saying that India's clandestine activities are relatively unchecked and they're still continuing forward, it begs the question, what are we going to do? The legislation is passed, but has to be action behind it. We are calling for that inquiry, because I don't believe that we fully understand their ability here, and their networks and what they've actually set up.

If they're able to continue after all of this, that means we have a gap somewhere—or several gaps—within law enforcement or security intelligence and their operatives are still here, or they have such a huge operation running here that it's going to take some time to dismantle. I believe we definitely need to check that—

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

I'm sorry to interrupt.

Very quickly, Mr. Balpreet Singh, from your perspective from the World Sikh Organization, are there any important lessons that Canada can learn from Indian interference in other countries—the things they're doing well, the nature of the threat, etc.?

4:50 p.m.

Legal Counsel, World Sikh Organization of Canada

Balpreet Singh

I think we're in uncharted territory right now. India is, for the first time, exposed to quite an extent, but what India has done consistently over the past 40 years is to say, “Well, you know, India is such a large market. It's this pesky small community of Sikhs. If you can deal with them, then we'll open up our markets and we can buy your pulses and whatnot.”

We cannot be trading our human rights for economic growth and trade. We have to keep our doors open for trade, obviously, but it can't be at the expense of human rights, and I think that's what we've seen over the past 40 years. Sikh concerns have been ignored and we've pussyfooted with India because we didn't want to offend them, because that might affect our political and economic relations. That has to be re-evaluated.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We'll do our final two slots in this round at four minutes apiece.

Ms. Dancho, please go ahead for four minutes.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again to the witnesses for their testimony.

Mr. Moninder Singh, I wanted to ask you a bit more. You talked a lot about the duty to warn. When did you start receiving these? You said you received multiples. Can you share a time frame of when these started happening?

4:50 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

The first ones were in July 2022. It was approximately a few days after Mr. Ripudaman Singh Malik was killed in Surrey, B.C. I, Mr. Nijjar and three others in Surrey were immediately given a duty to warn, within days. One of the reasons those duties to warn may have popped up, which is much more apparent now, is that multiple Indian newspaper media outlets had published our names as individuals who may have been involved in the murder of Mr. Malik, which is absolutely just BS at the end of the day, but they wanted to show there was a row in the community.

After Mr. Nijjar's death, I received my second duty to warn. It was also broadcast in the media that it was supporters of Mr. Malik that may have killed Mr. Nijjar. This is the way they wanted to run this whole operation. They wanted to show this was an intercommunity battle. They wanted to remove Sikh leadership from this country. Then they had multiple other threats, and after the indictment in the U.S. opened up, it was very clear it wasn't just going to be limited to Mr. Nijjar, Mr. Pannun and others. It was going to be a whole bunch of other Sikh leadership—in Canada especially—that was going to be eliminated.

Those duties to warn came in multiple forms. I have had regular conversations with law enforcement, with INSET and with CSIS around concerns within the community and, potentially, concerns they may have with me and my moving around the way I do. You get the duty to warn, and for me it was at very interesting times. It was after the murder of two Sikhs in Canada that I received both of those warnings. They've been continuing until now.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you for that. I appreciate your experience and that you shared it.

You mentioned the U.S. indictment. The Americans were able to thwart the murder with that indictment. I'm wondering if you feel that there are things the Americans did to prevent the murder that we could be doing moving forward to ensure that no more Mr. Nijjars are murdered. I take issue with the fact that we weren't able to stop those murders by a foreign government from happening. Our party obviously cares very deeply about this country, and foreign interference is a serious issue that is deeply assaulting to all of us. To see it from India, to such an extent that individuals are being murdered in Canada, is completely unacceptable.

It is frustrating as a Canadian to see that another country was able to stop murders and ours was not. Do you have any feedback on what we could be doing better so that we can stop future ones? I appreciate that the recent announcement addressed 13 individuals who were in peril. Our hope is that those individuals are no longer in peril, but we're not sure if that is the case. Any further information you can provide from your perspective would be welcome.

4:55 p.m.

Spokesperson, British Columbia Gurdwaras Council

Moninder Singh

The way the United States is set up with its interests first, it takes care of its country and its citizens. Something we don't understand, as citizens of this country, is, where are our interests right now? As Balpreet Singh stated, is it human rights, the right to life and freedoms that we have in this country, or is it keeping India as a strong partner? That is something that only the foreign interference commission, this study, and other actions the government will take in the coming months will actually show us. Where does the government put Canadian lives versus a relationship with India?

Treating India with padded gloves versus framing Russia and China as hostile actors.... I don't believe we have seen the same level of violence inflicted upon Canada and Canadians that India has done. I mentioned before that action is going to speak. I think an inquiry.... I will keep coming back to that, because we don't understand the enemy. We don't understand what it has done here. We don't understand how deeply it has infiltrated. Without knowing that, in a very strong sense [Technical difficulty—Editor] activities. Like Mr. MacGregor mentioned, they will just continue. We'll keep putting on band-aid solutions, and we won't actually protect Canadians.

The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon

Thank you, Ms. Dancho.

We'll now go to Mr. Sarai, for four minutes.