Evidence of meeting #2 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
I'm sorry. I thought that the first motion was to combine them.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
I understand. We're doing this in two parts in paragraph (a) of the our document.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
The numbering of these paragraphs in the two documents is different. What we're modifying, paragraph (b) of the original motion, shows up here on the amended version as paragraph (a). Perhaps there's a discrepancy there.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
The old version is (a) and (b); the new version is just (a). Okay.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
We'll make sure that the alphabet's in the right order in both official languages.
Thank you.
What I'm hearing is consensus on the second amendment, which would mean we do not have to have a recorded vote, but let me pause and make sure that I've got that right.
Is there agreement that we proceed with the wording from Mrs. Damoff on the second amendment?
(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Mrs. Damoff, you can go to the next amendment.
Liberal
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
The next section relates to making this study more extensive. It would be a new clause to follow what is now paragraph (a) and was paragraph (b).
This one is all new. It would say, “Include in this study the following urgent issues in relation to firearms: (a) all the ways that firearms are illegally diverted, including domestic diversion.” It's critical that when we're looking at how firearms are being used in crime, we look at all the ways firearms are finding their way into criminals' hands. That includes not only coming across the border, but also those that are sourced illegally domestically.
The second paragraph is that the study would include “the increase in femicides using a firearm and rise in gender-based violence where a firearm is involved”. This is something that, sadly, has always been an occurrence, but since the pandemic began, the rise in femicide and gender-based violence in which a firearm is involved has increased dramatically. I read just last week the Ontario report on femicide, and the number of cases that involved a shooting was absolutely terrible. Over the last five years, 500 women per year were victimized with firearms.
The last item, (c), is “suicides, mental health and the role of firearms”. We know that over 75% of people who died by firearms died by suicide. We know that mental health is also an indicator of issues that we are having with firearms, so adding these three to our study is really critical. It's imperative, actually, if we're going to be taking a look at firearms. Those are the three items that I would like to—
I'm sorry. There's a fourth one. I didn't turn my own page.
The fourth is “recognizing the involvement of gangs in firearms, the review of the programs that address the causes of youth gang involvement, programs that prevent recruitment, retention and diversion”. Paragraph (d) is actually taken word for word from the motion that we passed in the last Parliament around gangs. We're certainly seeing an increase in gang crime. It's important that we deal with the gang aspect in relation to firearms, not just the firearms themselves. As I said, I took the wording for (d) directly from the study that we were hoping to complete in the last Parliament, but we never got time to finish it.
I'll leave it there, Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you, Ms. Damoff. That's a substantial piece of work.
I now open the floor to commentary. I see that Mr. McKinnon has his hand up.
Go ahead, the floor is yours.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I think we have maybe another discrepancy in the documentation. Ms. Damoff is talking about subpoints (a), (b), (c), and (d) and so forth. In my document, they're small Roman numerals, (i) through (iv). I just want make sure that we're looking at the same thing.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
When you say part (c) and part (d), you're meaning actually (iii) and (iv), correct?
Liberal
Liberal
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
These are all very important issues. The only concern I have is that the motion was put forward with great urgency, as I mentioned at the beginning of the meeting, because there is a big problem with shootings in Montreal and other major cities in Canada. The original motion specifically suggests that we deal with the trafficking of illegal weapons and gang crime, which is already in the order adopted by the House. While these are very important topics that we could certainly study at another time, I fear that if we expand the scope of our study too much, we will lose sight of our original mandate. I want to hear the minister talk about his plan to counter the trafficking of illegal weapons, about what we are going to do differently at the borders, about what we are going to do to remove weapons from street gangs in Montreal. I'm afraid that if we look at a whole host of other issues, we'll get a little bit lost in the recommendations that we want to put forward to the government, which is the heart of the matter.
I'm a bit stymied. I totally agree that we could start another study on these topics after the current study. We would have to check some details about how many meetings we want to have on this subject. I'm afraid we're losing sight of the original request, which was really about gun control at the borders, gun trafficking and why illegal guns are getting into the hands of our young people and shootings are happening repeatedly in the big cities. That's my fear.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
Thank you.
We have a bit of a speakers list that's forming.
Next is Mr. Lloyd.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm inclined to agree with Ms. Michaud on this matter. I agree that all of these amendments are important subjects to study, but I believe each and every one of them could be the subject of its entire own study. Given the limited time that we're giving ourselves to study this very important issue of the rise of crime and the illegal firearms trafficking over borders, I think it would water down this committee's ability to target in and focus on that specific issue if we were to expand its scope with these important but additional very weighty issues.
I would encourage the members of this committee who want to study this to propose a separate study in and of itself, because it would be important. I also believe that in the motion in and of itself, when we're talking about subsection (i)—“all the ways that firearms are illegally diverted”—I believe domestic diversion would be included, and that already would be covered by the existing motion. There's nothing to stop witnesses from being asked about it or to provide evidence to talk about domestic diversion. I think that's something that absolutely would be considered on topic for this committee to discuss and to include in our report.
Then on subsection (iv), particularly “the involvement of gangs in firearms”, absolutely we should be reviewing programs that address the causes of youth gang involvement and recruitment and retention, as well as diversion. I think that would already be covered in the scope of the existing study without the amendment.
I will close by saying that I'm in support of the concerns by Ms. Michaud and that we should keep this committee study targeted on the spirit of the motion that was passed by unanimous consent in the House.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
I'm again going to suggest a compromise. I know what led Ms. Damoff to include these points, because of course they do concern her and the people in her riding, and indeed in many communities here. When I look at the original motion from the House that directed this committee in our study, I see that it makes specific reference to gun control, illegal arms trafficking and increasing gun crime committed by members of street gangs.
Perhaps, members of the committee, the compromise is for us to amend this section and simply concentrate on paragraphs (i) and (iv).
I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chair.