Public Safety Committee on Dec. 14th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everybody. We're on time. That's the first victory.

The second victory in no particular order was the Winnipeg Blue Bombers' victory in the Grey Cup. If the vice-chair and I have a bit of a spring in our step this morning, you will give us a little bit of slack. It was an incredibly exciting game, as it has been for more than 100 years, and we from Winnipeg are absolutely thrilled that we were able to emerge, so we're in a pretty good meeting space this morning coming off this victory.

I am very grateful to all of you for arriving on time. Punctuality, as my mentor once said, is the courtesy of kings and queens. We will start our meetings on time, and I hope we can more or less end them on time.

I will be very alert to allotments of time when we have witnesses. It is very important that we respect that rule. It just keeps everybody a little bit sharper, and it's the right way to run a meeting.

Welcome to meeting number two of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application, as I am. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation, and in light of the recommendations from health authorities as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, and to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain two-metre physical distancing and must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is highly recommended that the mask be worn at all times, including when seated. Everyone must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the provided hand sanitizer at the room entrance.

As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses participating virtually may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either “floor”, “English” or “French”. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

I will give a reminder that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair, and with regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Moving to committee business, pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), the committee is meeting today to consider a request received by the clerk and submitted by four members of the committee to discuss the mandate given by the House and the urgency for the committee to organize its proceedings and invite the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and other witnesses to appear.

Members have all received the letter.

I will now open the floor to debate.

Who would like to speak first?

I don't see a hand up.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Wassim Bouanani]

Madame Michaud raised her hand, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Madame Michaud, the floor is yours.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the members of the committee who, pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), signed the letter stating that today we will plan how we want to receive our witnesses after the holiday season. We have drafted a motion to discuss this today.

Mr. Chair, would you like me to read the motion again so that we can actually debate the specific things that are in it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

It's never a bad idea for members to have reinforcement. It's from the mover, in this case. Why don't you proceed with that?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Perfect. I'll try to read it slowly. I think our interpretation is working well.

Let me also take this opportunity to thank the interpreters.

The motion is the following:

That, in addition to the meeting already scheduled by the Standing Committee on Public Safety on December 15, 2021, to hear from the Minister of Public Safety and from departmental officials, the committee: (a) hold, by December 17, 2021, at least one (1) additional meeting to hear from Royal Canadian Mounted Police officials for a duration of three (3) hours; (b) plan, prior to the holiday break, to invite representatives from the Border Services Agency and union representatives of the agency's employees to appear for a period of three (3) hours and that this meeting be held no later than February 4, 2022; (c) plan additional meetings to hear from witnesses based on suggestions from the various parties on the committee, with the understanding that they will provide their suggestions to the clerk of the committee no later than Friday, January 14, 2022, at 4:00 p.m.; and (d) report its findings and recommendations to the House no later than February 25, 2022.

I would add that this seems to be a fairly short time frame to report back to the House. However, because this issue was put on the table in the context of an emergency, particularly because of the shootings in Montreal and other major Canadian cities, it is an urgent issue that we must address now. That is why we have a fairly short deadline to report back to the House and make specific recommendations to the government on this subject.

I will be very pleased to hear from my colleagues on this matter.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Clerk, I am not seeing hands up on my screen right now, but I'm positive there are some. If you can see which hands are up, I would ask you to call on them, please.

[The Clerk]

Yes, sir.

Ms. Damoff is next.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, through you to the clerk, for assisting with the technology here.

I want to thank the members of the committee for bringing this motion forward. Gun violence is an issue that is of great importance to our government and to me personally, having worked on this issue in previous renditions of this committee.

First of all, thank you, and thank you, Madame Michaud, for your leadership in seeing this come to the committee.

I have a number of amendments that I would like to make to the motion, all of which are to make the study more efficient. I have the changed motion in both official languages. I only have tracked changes in English, so I can't distribute that, but I can go through that for you. If I could speak to them generally, I'll then go through each one at a time, if that's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

That's fine.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Because (a) and (b) go together, the first change would be to delete (a). The rationale for that is because having the RCMP and the CBSA appear at the same committee meeting, by February 4, would be more efficient and more productive for the committee. When the RCMP says “That's not us; it's the CBSA”, or when the CBSA says “That's not us; it's the RCMP”, both agencies are before the committee at the same time to respond.

The first amendment I have is to delete (a).

Will I have the floor to go through all of these amendments? I have four of them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Yes, I think that might be the most efficient way of doing it.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. Clerk, do you have a view on that? Do you want to do them one by one?

[The Clerk]

Yes, let's do one amendment at a time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Okay. I'll pause after hearing the substance of the first amendment and ask other members of the committee for comment.

Again, I cannot see hands up, so Mr. Clerk, I'll ask you to advise me.

If there are no hands up to comment on the first amendment, would we then proceed to a vote on the first amendment?

[The Clerk]

Madame Michaud just raised her hand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Madame Michaud, the floor is yours.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There is also the Canada Border Services Agency employees' union.

With one meeting with the RCMP and CBSA, will we have enough time to meet with the union representatives?

In fact, I think that what the border services officers have to say is just as important as what the agency representatives have to say. Could this all take place in one meeting?

It's mostly a matter of logistics.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Go ahead, Madam Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

The change that I made already includes the CBSA union. Do you want to include the RCMP union as well?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

No, I don't particularly want to. In fact, it's just to make sure that the union will be there along with the Canada Border Services Agency representatives.

I understand you want to add the RCMP to the same meeting. Is that correct?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I did not remove the CBSA union from your motion.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

The union will be there? Okay.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

As I said, I tried to honour the spirit of the motion as best I could. The only change I will be proposing next is that the RCMP be added with the CBSA and the union representatives.