Public Safety Committee on Dec. 16th, 2021

[John Ossowski]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

The issue of illicit guns at the border is a responsibility we share with the RCMP. While we have the mandate at ports of entry for the enforcement, and the RCMP has the mandate in between ports of entry, our teams really work hand in hand. I would just emphasize your point about sharing the intelligence and understanding of how these networks work. That's where I really believe we're going to get the most benefit and the results from our collective efforts.

We got investments in budget 2021 for new analysts and investigative intelligence officers, and we're going to be using those officers to work with the RCMP to better disrupt the flow across the border.

Thank you.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Ossowski.

I'll turn to Ms. Lucki again.

As I was saying earlier, the Akwesasne reserve straddles multiple jurisdictions, and it would be a really good place to smuggle weapons. There are members of the community who are terrorized by criminal gangs and who are afraid of retribution if they speak out or intervene.

I would like to know if the RCMP is having any discussions with the Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service and how much leeway they might have to intervene in this case, and if they are aware of the situation. I would imagine so, because there have been seizures nearby. However, do they have the leeway to act and intervene in this situation?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That's a great question.

I would refer to what President Ossowski said. We need to, first of all, gather the intelligence together, and that's where we would rely on police of jurisdiction, whether it be Akwesasne police or Toronto police or any other police agency.

The second thing we have to continue to be good at is integration, so integrating with those police of jurisdiction and forming those partnerships. When they do have that information, we like to work together with them to tackle the issue. With their intelligence and our support, we can work together to combat the smuggling.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You talk about sharing information; I get the sense that that is the case between the RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency, but is it the case with other police forces in the territory?

For example, I was talking to the minister earlier about the Bloc Québécois proposal to create a joint squad of OPP, NYPD, SQ and RCMP officers, together with border services officers.

Beyond information sharing, would it be beneficial to have teams, directly on the ground, that could better control illegal trafficking?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Commissioner, we have 30 seconds in this slot, so make it a short answer, please.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

What I will say is that we have, from the Government of Quebec, the announcement regarding Operation Centaur, for example, which is aimed at deploying specialized investigative teams to disrupt that illegal firearms trafficking. Along with a number of other police forces, we are participating with the Quebec task force on that to gather the information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

Now we have Mr. MacGregor for six minutes.

The floor is yours, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to clarify the statistics with the RCMP. I think it was mentioned that 73% of those traced were sourced legally and domestically, and then 27% were possibly smuggled. Did I have that correct, or can you just correct me if I am wrong?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I believe that is what I said.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Commissioner, of the 27% that were possibly smuggled, I'm curious as to what our police agencies are learning when they trace these weapons. What point of origin can we trace the weapons to, and are we learning lessons about how criminal elements are getting their hands on these firearms? Are they generally being stolen from manufacturers or from gun shops? Are a lot coming from private firearms owners themselves?

I just want to know what kind of picture is being painted from your tracing efforts, what kind of lessons are being learned, and then how those are being applied, maybe in conjunction with our American allies.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

The firearms tracing, obviously, is the key tool in determining the sources of and the diversion routes for the illegal firearms, as well as the link between the criminal use of firearms and specific vendors, and to identify the tracking routes and patterns. However, it isn't a mandatory program.

I will pass this over to my colleague, Deputy Commissioner White, who is more of an expert than I am in this area.

[D/Commr Stephen White]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I would add that tracing a firearm is complex. It involves tracking from the point of manufacture through importation and delivery to distributors, to retailers, out to licence and to restricted and prohibited firearms dealers. Ultimately, we're hoping to trace it to an owner, especially here in Canada, if it is a restricted or prohibited weapon that's registered.

In terms of being able to identify the final person who's in possession of it at the time of a crime, we're hoping that by going through all of these, all the way back, we can identify everybody who's had a hand on that firearm. It's a complex process. It can be a long process, but, as the commissioner said, it's a key tool in determining the sources of and diversion routes for illegal firearms.

As was mentioned, one of the challenges for us right now is that we're only tracing a small amount. Last year, we had requests to trace just over 2,000 firearms and we were successful in tracing 1,472 of them. Based on the number of firearms that are seized nationally, we still have a long way to go in terms of enhancing our tracing capabilities.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that.

For my next question, I'd like to turn it over to Mr. Stewart, the deputy minister for the Department of Public Safety.

Deputy Minister, when Minister Mendicino was before our committee in the first hour, he mentioned in his opening statement the federal funding that has gone into place for anti-gang strategies and so on. When I asked him about the sometimes troubled relationship that some vulnerable communities—including racialized, Black and indigenous communities—have with police....

I would just like to know, from your department's perspective, what kind of metrics are you using to measure success? Obviously, a drop in the numbers is one, but do you have any sense of what the interim reporting is like for those downstream policing services? Are the federal dollars that have been spent so far having a success in the interim period?

[Rob Stewart, Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

We are in the process of preparing a midterm report on our first $250-million program countering gun and gang violence, so those statistics are being assembled as we speak. That will be critical to ensuring support and approval for the extension of that program, which was originally funded for $250 million and also has available $100 million ongoing after 2024.

We can come back to you with details on that, but we do have, as is required by the Treasury Board, a performance measurement framework attached to those programs when they are established, which will look at incidence of crime and various other measures of that type. I'm not able to tell you the specific performance indicators here, but I could certainly get that information for you.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That would be appreciated. Thank you for that.

Finally, Mr. Chair, in the minute that I have, I'll turn to the CBSA.

We enjoy the longest undefended border in the world with our United States neighbours. Many parts of that border are uninhabited and wilderness. Are we noticing any patterns in terms of smuggling activity with firearms where criminal elements may be trying to make use of areas where there is not so much surveillance at play? What steps is the Canadian government taking to address those possible gaps in our surveillance?

[John Ossowski]

Thank you for the question.

As I mentioned in my previous response, the RCMP is responsible for patrolling the border in between ports of entry. However, we do work with them in terms of anything that they might see, working on the intelligence and understanding those routes and patterns and whatever organized crime activities might be part of that.

Brenda might be in a better position to answer.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

The RCMP can answer quickly.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I can add that there is a range of vulnerabilities, including the marine environment—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I'm sorry, Commissioner. We're out of time for this segment. I'm constrained. I'd love to hear you talk all day, but I can't.

We will move to the second round. In the first slot, we have Mr. Van Popta.

The floor is yours, sir.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

I believe that Ms. Dancho is going first.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

It's up to you.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a few questions for the RCMP and the CBSA. First of all, thank you all for being here today. Thank you for your hard work and dedication to keeping Canadians safe.

To the RCMP, what we're hearing from smaller detachments across the country is that you're very strapped for resources, particularly as violent crime and gang activity are spreading from our large urban centres to smaller communities outside of our major cities. This is of grave concern to me, as I'm sure it is to all Canadians. We're also seeing issues with rising opioid deaths. We know that hard drug trafficking is increasing as well, and it seems that there are fewer and fewer police resources and police individuals to tackle these issues.

I'm wondering if you can just comment in a broader sense. If the Liberal government, or a federal government, were to provide your department an additional billion dollars to combat gang violence, illegally smuggled firearms and illegally possessed firearms, would that help? How would you apply that billion dollars?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

As I said earlier, we can always use more resources. This is a huge border. We are working toward advancing our technology. For example, we're doing a study to identify the gaps across the border, so we can see if there are some technological solutions that would close those gaps. This is one part.

Also, because gang activity is mostly in the bigger centres—of course we look at the Lower Mainland—we do invest a lot in reducing gang activity through gang suppression teams. They are successful when we concentrate our efforts. Obviously, we don't have the benefit of having that in all of our detachments, as they are more of a general duty environment, but we do spread those teams out. We have provincially funded teams through crime reduction and enforcement that try to deal with the 5% of the population who cause 90% of the grief. We try to use those crime reduction teams that are provincially and federally funded on a contractual basis. That's where they can deal with those problems directly.

It would be great to have more resources in those areas as well.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I assume you can hire many more police officers as well to keep our communities safe and to keep violent gun crime down with a billion dollars.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We can always do a lot with a billion dollars. That's for sure.