Public Safety Committee on Dec. 16th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Good morning, everyone, from a very frosty Winnipeg. I threw on the parka this morning, and the gloves and everything.

Welcome to meeting number three of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain two-metre physical distancing; wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room, and it is highly recommended that the mask be worn at all times, including when seated; and maintain proper hand hygiene by using the provided hand sanitizer at the room entrance. As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses participating virtually may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

As a reminder, all comments by members should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk will advise the chair on whose hands are up, to the best of his ability. We will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the House of Commons on Tuesday, December 7, 2021, the committee is commencing its study of gun control, illegal arms trafficking and the increase in gun crimes committed by members of street gangs.

With us today by video conference, we have the Honourable Marco Mendicino, Minister of Public Safety; from Canada Border Services Agency, John Ossowski, president; from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, Rob Stewart, deputy minister; and from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Brenda Lucki, commissioner.

We will start with opening remarks, after which we will proceed with rounds of questions.

Welcome, Minister. It is very good to see you, however virtually. I now invite you to make an opening statement.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, committee members.

As we begin, I'd like to acknowledge that I'm joining you virtually from the traditional territory of the Algonquin.

It's an honour to make this first appearance before you in my new capacity as Minister of Public Safety. I look forward to collaborating with you.

I want to thank Ms. Michaud for presenting the motion to study gun violence to the House. We have seen too many tragedies in Montreal, Winnipeg, Vancouver, Toronto and across the country. There have been too many lives lost.

École Polytechnique in Montreal, Quebec City mosque, Toronto on the Danforth, and Portapique in Nova Scotia, each of these tragedies was marked by senseless acts of violence with one common denominator—guns.

We can say we grieve for the victims and survivors, and surely our hearts go out to them, but words are not enough. Thoughts and prayers are not enough. Words have to be put into action, and that is what we are doing. Our government has taken decisive action by introducing stronger gun controls, investing in more policing resources and border enforcement, and by allocating funds for prevention strategies and community infrastructure.

We passed Bill C-71, which requires enhanced background checks to prevent those who have a history of violence from owning a firearm. Regulations under Bill C-71 have been referred to this committee. Once in force, they will help police trace illegal guns and ensure that firearms licences are verified. At a time when we have seen rates of gun-related gender-based violence and femicide increase, we owe it to survivors to do more. I urge members to deal with these regulations at the first available opportunity.

Canadians will also recall that our government introduced a ban of over 1,500 assault-style rifles, including the weapons used at École Polytechnique, at the Quebec City mosque and at Dawson College. For decades, grieving families and survivors had asked successive governments to prohibit these types of firearms. As my predecessor Minister Blair said at the time, “Enough is enough.”

In addition to stronger gun controls, we've backed up law enforcement in our communities and at the border. We've invested over $300 million over five years, beginning this year, including $40 million to combat smuggling, $15 million for tracing, and over $21 million for CBSA equipment and intelligence sharing. We've allocated $250 million to fight guns and gangs violence on our streets. The results of these investments are clear: They are working. We've seen record gun seizures and arrests thanks to the hard-working members of the RCMP and the CBSA.

In Quebec, our investments have resulted in the hiring of 71 new police officers over the past year. This is in addition to the 19 prosecutors and 5 data specialists hired across the country in the past year.

At the border, we are continuing to work very closely with our provincial and American partners. Domestically, we have the integrated border enforcement team, which coordinates the RCMP and provincial police services through joint operations. When I was in Washington, D.C., about a month ago, I met with my counterpart, Secretary Mayorkas. We committed to attending the cross-border crime forum, as well as the joint firearms task force to stem the flow of illegal guns across our international borders.

Despite this progress, we have more to do. Now that we have banned assault rifles, we have to take the next steps and implement a buyback program. To all the survivors and advocacy groups, including PolySeSouvient and the Danforth Families, we are listening to you. We are going to make the buyback program mandatory.

When it comes to handguns, I hear what my colleagues in the Bloc Québécois are saying. I am aware of the motion passed by the National Assembly, and I will work with my counterparts in the province according to their needs.

It is a fact that the majority of gun-related homicides involve a handgun, and that's why our government is committed to investing one billion dollars to support those provinces and territories that want to ban handguns. We are going to increase criminal penalties for gun smuggling and trafficking, and enhance the capacity of police and border officials to keep illegal firearms and ammunition out of the country.

We cannot simply rely on the hammer of criminal law. Arresting, charging, prosecuting and sentencing are all after the fact. We need to prevent gun crimes from occurring in the first place, and that's why we're investing $250 million in a safe communities fund to create safer and more inclusive spaces.

Speaking of safety, I say this to our law-abiding gun owners: We know that you are responsible, prudent and respectful of the law. I want to assure hunters, farmers and target shooters that nothing we are doing is intended to diminish their lawful recreational activities. At the same time, we have a responsibility to work together to reduce gun violence. We cannot risk another shooting at a school, a place of worship, or at a police officer, or on women, or on any innocent life. Public safety is our top priority. Protecting human life must come above all else.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I am committed to working with all of you to achieve that goal.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much, Minister.

I will now open the floor to questions.

Let me begin by inviting Ms. Dancho. You have six minutes. The floor is yours.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the minister for being with us today on relatively short notice.

Minister, I've lived in Montreal for a number of years. It's deeply important to me that we see the issue of gun violence solved in that country, but we also see violent crime across Canada. I represent a riding in Winnipeg, and we're seeing increased violence there as well. In fact, across Canada, in five of the last six years, violent crime has gone up. Firearms-related offences have increased for six years in a row now. Homicides are at a 30-year high, and we know that at least one-third of homicides are committed with firearms. As long as I've been alive, homicides haven't been this bad. I think that's pretty serious, and we're hoping for serious action from your government.

Winnipeg itself is on track to surpass its 2019 homicide record, and it was also ranked the violent crime capital of Canada in 2020. Conservative members are taking the violent crime we're seeing surging across the country over the last six years very seriously.

However, we are also disappointed following one of the shootings this fall in Montreal. I think it was even the day after your government introduced Bill C-5, which removes mandatory prison time, as you know, for robberies with a firearm, extortion with a firearm, weapons trafficking, discharging a firearm with intent to injure, and using a firearm in the commission of a crime. We're quite concerned that, on one hand, we're seeing criminals using often illegally smuggled guns to harm our communities, and on the other hand, your government is taking away the ability to ensure mandatory prison time.

I'd like to know if you believe Bill C-5 will keep criminals responsible for the shootings in Montreal, and others across the country, off our streets.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Ms. Dancho, I do. Before I tell you why, I want to thank you for your advocacy and for bringing your experiences, both in Winnipeg and Montreal, to this committee.

I will say that Bill C-5 does ensure that a number of mandatory minimum penalties with regard to firearms offences, serious firearms offences, remain in place. Not only that, but as I have said, there are a number of serious firearms offences to which we propose to increase maximum penalties, which of course we trust our independent judiciary to dispense where appropriate.

I will also say, as I outlined in my remarks, that our government takes this issue very seriously, which is why we have introduced additional gun controls, particularly the banning of assault rifles. We are now going to take the next steps to do whatever it takes to reduce gun violence, because I believe we are all joined in that cause.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Minister.

We don't share your belief that allowing criminals who use firearms in robberies, for extortion and serious gun crimes like that.... We believe they should go to jail and that would help clean up our streets. We are concerned that Bill C-5 is allowing these criminals to return to our streets and ensure violence continues.

Another issue that we know is deeply tied to gun violence in Montreal and Toronto is, of course, drug trafficking, pushing of opioids, fentanyl and heroin. We know opioids kill 7,000 Canadians a year, yet Bill C-5 also eliminates the mandatory prison time for drug traffickers, so we're quite concerned. We know gang violence and gun violence are deeply interrelated with drug trafficking, yet you're taking away the ability for mandatory prison time for those who commit dangerous, violent gun crime and those who are pushing drugs on people, which is killing 7,000 Canadians a year.

Again, we see Bill C-5 as completely opposite of what needs to be done to address gun violence and the gang and drug-trafficking activity that is fuelling that in our cities. In Manitoba alone, we had 372 drug-related deaths in 2020, so we find this to be very serious.

Does the minister believe leaving criminal drug traffickers on our streets, rather than putting them in prison where they rightfully belong for killing thousands of Canadians, will stop gang violence in Montreal?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Ms. Dancho, of course not.

Having served over a decade on the front lines of our criminal justice system and as a federal prosecutor responsible for prosecuting drug traffickers, and not those who are suffering from mental health and other issues, I agree that, where appropriate, there do need to be jail sentences, and we must trust our courts and our judges to dispense, with justice, where appropriate.

I will also say, with regard to the opioid crisis, that our government has put in place measures to stop organized crime and to stop criminals from trafficking in opioids, including at our border. As I mentioned, I met with my counterpart, Secretary Mayorkas of DHS in Washington, where we agreed to meet, to use the cross-border crime forum to interdict the trafficking of illegal drugs, including opioids. We're seeing CBSA and the RCMP make record arrests, which is a sign of the concrete progress that we are making.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Minister. You mentioned that in your opening remarks.

We just have about a minute left, so I'll go to my last question.

The minister mentioned a gun buyback program as a primary measure to stop gun violence, although we know gang violence using guns and drug trafficking are the primary reasons we are seeing rising gun crime in our cities.

How many guns does the minister believe will be handed over to the federal government from criminals in Montreal using a gun buyback or a provincial ban? How many criminals does he anticipate will hand over their illegally possessed guns to the federal government?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Minister, you have about 20 seconds left in this slot.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Very briefly, Mr. Chair, I would simply say that the buyback program that we are going to—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Minister, the answer is zero. Criminals will not be handing their guns back to you. They are the ones who are hurting people in our cities. The number is zero, Minister.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Mr. McKinnon, go ahead.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

The witness was asked a question. He was given a very short time to answer and has been interrupted. I request that the minister be given time to properly answer the question without interruption.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Take 10 seconds, Minister, and then we'll—

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Yes, go ahead.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the time is my time and it can be used how I deem correct. I was not satisfied with the answer.

We can move forward since my time and his time are up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

You're right. The six minutes are up. We will move to the next questioner.

Ms. Bendayan, you have six minutes. The floor is yours.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I also thank the minister for attending the committee today.

I would like to address the issue of Bill C‑71, which was passed in 2019 and was mentioned by the minister. This is really an important step forward for better gun control. I was pleased to see the first set of regulations introduced recently. However, in my riding, PolySeSouvient—PolyRemembers—and many other stakeholders would like to see these regulations strengthened to require the systematic verification of licences and other documents of all firearm purchasers, as well as an extension of the mandatory 90‑day retention of purchasers' licence information.

Could the minister comment on these potential changes and provide an update on the remaining Bill C‑71 regulations?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Bendayan, for your leadership on this issue, but also for mentioning PolySeSouvient. I just spoke with its representatives almost two weeks ago.

The government considers Bill C‑71 essential. It is a mechanism to introduce more measures and controls to combat gun violence. For example, there are background checks to ensure that people who buy guns do not have a history of violence and even to prevent those with a history of gender-based violence from buying them.

There are also mechanisms in Bill C‑71 to check the sales history of all firearms dealers. Now, we are asking this committee to study the regulations stemming from Bill C‑71, which has become law, and to take the next steps to protect everyone. This is such an important bill for our gun violence strategy.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

In your statement you also mentioned the introduction of a mandatory buyback program for assault weapons prohibited by our 2020 order in council. This is extremely important. That order provides for a two-year amnesty for those who own prohibited weapons; the amnesty will end in May 2022, which is fast approaching.

Can you update us on the progress of this all-important promise to implement a mandatory buyback program?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Absolutely, Ms. Bendayan. We have delivered on the promise we made during the election campaign. We have introduced a mandatory buyback of banned assault weapons. This is the result of the hard work of PolySeSouvient and all MPs who have concerns about gun violence. Our next step is to put this initiative in place to address gun violence.

With respect to the amnesty, we will address this important element of our strategy in the future.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you.

As a Montreal MP, I am very concerned about the wave of gun violence, Minister. This year, there have been about 200 shootings in Montreal. We have taken firm action to combat gun violence on our streets, including banning the 1,500 line of assault weapons. But we also know that the majority of deaths right now are caused by handguns. My constituents are clear on this. They are calling for a national ban on handguns, and polls show that nearly three quarters of Canadians also support a national ban on handguns.

Could you give us your views on a national handgun ban today?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I agree with you, Ms. Bendayan.

This is a very difficult time for Montreal, Quebec. In fact, everywhere else in the country, there is an increase in handgun violence. That's why we promised during the election campaign that we would work with all provinces and territories to seek concrete solutions to reduce the incidence of handgun violence. We will invest...