Evidence of meeting #31 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
That's one of the reasons you were so angry with your deputies in Nova Scotia in that meeting, correct?
12:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
I wasn't angry.
12:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
Not at all. I was disappointed. I felt let down, but I wasn't angry or upset. It's not part of my DNA.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Darren Campbell said that you specifically said you promised. You're saying, “Maybe I did, but I definitely said I confirmed to the minister....”
12:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
I may have said that, but it wasn't the context. If Darren Campbell put that in his notes, I'm not going to question his notes. What I'm saying, though, is my intention was not.... It wasn't a promise in the traditional sense. It was confirming the answer to a question.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Commissioner, on April 23 you said that the information about the weapons should not be released because it was related to an active investigation. Why did you change your mind three or four days later? To me, it seems like this conversation with Minister Blair changed your mind.
12:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
No, not at all. It wasn't all about the investigation either. It was the fact that—
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Pardon me. On the weapons specifically, you said not to share it, and then four or five days later, you were reprimanding your deputies for not sharing it.
12:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
No. It wasn't specifically about the weapons, whether to share or not to share.... In that email, yes, but it was also about the protocol that they had in place on the ground, because nothing was to be released by anybody in government until the RCMP released it in the media.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
12:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
—and secondly, we had protocol with the families.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Did the minister influence your demeanour in that meeting with your deputies? Did the minister influence your demeanour?
12:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
No, he did not.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Jim Carr
We're out of time.
Thank you very much.
We now turn to Ms. Damoff.
You have six minutes in this round, Ms. Damoff. Go ahead whenever you're ready.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you.
I, too, would like to follow up on the comments made by a number of my colleagues recognizing how triggering this meeting can be, not only to those from Nova Scotia but also to all Canadians who have lived through gun violence. I want to recognize that. In particular, to our colleague across the way, MP Ellis, and those in Nova Scotia, my condolences.
Commissioner, I recall after that shooting—and you mentioned this in your remarks—the pressure from the media. I recall pressure from Canadians. Opposition party MP Barrett asked a question during question period about when this information was going to come out.
It sounds like you had a number of conversations with Minister Blair about what would be said in that press conference. Was that a normal thing that would transpire between you and the minister, especially with a national tragedy such as what happened in Nova Scotia? Would it be normal to relay to him what he could expect to see at the press conference?
12:20 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
Yes. Many times we provide the speaking notes beforehand, but because there were so many details, and they were changing—they were adding and subtracting and adding and subtracting—we didn't have a final version.
It wasn't necessarily with Minister Blair at that point. It would have been with his staff going back and forth. I would provide one. I only gave one copy because, like I said, it was so dynamic, but that's normal practice.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Were those conversations only related to the guns that were used, or were they...? I recall Canadians being quite upset about the communications by the Nova Scotia RCMP at the time and the lack of information that was provided, so was that conversation only about guns or was it a broader conversation that you had?
12:25 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
No, all of the conversations were about several things. The number of deceased was always changing. Where the deceased were located, the background of the perpetrator, the replica uniforms and the replica cars were others. There were so many different points.
What was getting frustrating was that the media was reporting everything before we did. With regard to the number of deceased, for example, I remember looking up on a screen and seeing 22 faces on a screen, and we were reporting different numbers. We needed to get in front of it, because this wasn't a normal type of investigation, in the sense that the perpetrator was deceased.
Usually the information is more forthcoming, but my heart goes out to them. They didn't have the capacity on the ground. It's a small division. They don't have a big communications centre. I should have mentioned this. They were doing the best they could with what they had, and we were trying to get a team on the ground to assist them, but because of COVID, non-operational people were not allowed into the province.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
That's right. There was a ban on travel into the province at the time, wasn't there?
July 25th, 2022 / 12:25 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
Yes, there was.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Commissioner, one of the weapons that was banned in the order in council was the AR-15, and when Minister Blair appeared earlier, he talked about how the Sandy Hook shooting in the United States with an AR-15, in particular, impacted him.
My colleague Mr. Hardie mentioned the Christchurch shooting in New Zealand.
Marine core combat veteran Dr. Kyleanne Hunter testified before the U.S. Congress recently and explained the difference between an AR-15 and other types of weapons. She said, “It was designed to kill someone wearing a military helmet.... What that does to a civilian wearing nothing...is liquify organs.” That really struck me at to why in both 2015 and 2019 we promised to ban weapons like the AR-15, and also why it was in the minister's mandate and why we took action in the order in council.
Commissioner, you have far more experience than I do, is that an accurate description of an AR-15?
12:25 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
I would like to say that I do have that kind of experience, but I don't. I have subject matter experts who assist me in the firearms regulations. Specifically, we have a lab with a full inventory of weapons, and the experts are far more adept at that than I am.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Given that she was in the marines, I'm going to suggest that she probably does have a fair amount of experience to be able to say that.
On that note, was the RCMP involved in discussions with the minister's office about what weapons to include in that order in council? How long had those conversations been going on?
12:25 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
We are always involved with anything with policy or legislation that affects policing as is the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. It was the same type of process when we were dealing with the cannabis legislation as well. Of course, within the RCMP we have many subject matter experts who came to the table and briefed the minister regularly when they were looking at legislative policy and policy changes.