Evidence of meeting #31 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rob Stewart  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Brenda Lucki  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Commissioner Brian Brennan  Deputy Commissioner, Contract and Indigenous Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Commissioner Lee Bergerman  Former Assistant Commissioner and Commanding Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Nova Scotia, As an Individual
Sharon Tessier  Former Director General, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Superintendent Chris Leather  Criminal Operations Officer, Nova Scotia, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Josée Harrison

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Again, I'll reiterate that at no time did I cross that line. I did not direct the commissioner of the RCMP, and I did not have any private conversation with her in which that was done. The commissioner did not promise me that she would do this.

I think the commissioner understood her job, and her job was to serve the people of Canada and the people of Nova Scotia, to give them information that they desperately needed and wanted with respect to the terrible tragedy that had taken place there. I believe the commissioner was highly motivated to do so and was working with her people in order to make sure that information was provided to the people who had been impacted by this terrible tragedy.

For me, I want to be very clear. I did not direct the RCMP. I did not direct them in their operations or in their communications and throughout. There were a number of questions—

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you, Minister.

Noon

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

—put to me in the House and in the media in which I was asked...and in every single case, I reiterated my commitment that the responsibility for disclosure of that information lies solely with the RCMP, and—

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you, Minister.

Noon

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

—at no time did I interfere with that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Noon

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Thank you.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

I'm sorry, but we're out of time. That's always the big challenge and the curse of these meetings: We always run out of time. We've run out of time for this section and for this panel.

Deputy and Minister, thank you very much for the generosity of your time.

Members, thank you for keeping within your time limits.

We will now suspend for a change of technology. It should take about five minutes and no more, so we'll see you all in five.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you, colleagues. We're ready to call the meeting back to order.

Our second panel witnesses are from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police: Commissioner Brenda Lucki; and deputy commissioner Brian Brennan, contract and indigenous policing. They have requested that they split their time.

Commissioner Lucki, you will have seven and a half minutes, and then deputy commissioner, you will have two and a half minutes. Welcome to all of you.

I now invite you, Commissioner Lucki, to begin your opening statement.

The floor is yours.

12:05 p.m.

Commissioner Brenda Lucki Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Good afternoon.

I can't imagine what Nova Scotians went through during that 12-hour rampage and I recognize that there is a lot of healing required to move forward.

Each and every day, my employees do the best they can with the circumstances they are faced with, but, of course, we can always do better. That's why the Mass Casualty Commission was created: “to provide meaningful recommendations to keep communities safe in the future.”

Thanks for the opportunity to speak on some of these important issues that were raised by this incident.

Let me begin and let me be clear: I did not interfere in the investigation around this tragedy; nor did I experience political interference. Specifically, I was not directed to publicly release information about weapons used by the perpetrator to help advance pending gun control legislation.

Was there pressure for information from the federal government about this incident? Yes. This wasn't surprising, as we were dealing with the biggest mass shooting incident in our country. It was my responsibility to keep relevant officials apprised of the evolving situation while maintaining the integrity of the operation.

Were the requests for information and updates political interference? No. In my dealings with Minister Blair, he was very conscious of this and has never sought to interfere in the investigation.

I understand that some RCMP employees may have different perspectives based on the meeting of April 28. However, I was the only RCMP official dealing with the minister, other senior government officials and occasionally with the Prime Minister. I am the only one who can speak to the nature of these requests, exchanges of information and my intentions during that meeting.

The integrity of a police investigation is critical. As someone with over 35 years in policing, that's something I would never seek to influence or jeopardize, nor would I allow RCMP investigations to be dictated or influenced by government officials.

I am accountable to the minister from an administrative perspective, but the RCMP is operationally independent. The basis for this principle is to prevent direct and specific political control of police operational activity, with the sole responsibility for operational decision-making resting in the hands of police officers.

Keeping the government informed through timely and accurate information sharing is not interference. It's standard procedure, and these situational updates are provided without compromising the operational integrity of an investigation.

I did provide information on April 23 about the types of weapons found in the perpetrator's possession—information that was to be shared with the minister and the Prime Minister—noting that it wasn't to be disseminated any further as there was an active investigation. Additional information was shared as well, but government officials were advised that any information received couldn't be shared with the media until first released by RCMP. This included such information as the number and names of the deceased, replica police uniforms and vehicle information, the incident at the fire hall, the background of the perpetrator and the weapons used and seized.

In the lead-up to the Nova Scotia press conference scheduled for April 28, I provided information to the government on what would be released. At that time, I was asked if the information about the weapons would be included. When my communications team told me that it would be, I relayed this information back to Minister Blair's chief of staff and the deputy minister of public safety.

Regarding my use of the word “promise” during the meeting I had with my team following that press conference, at that time and in that context, I was trying to convey that I had confirmed to the minister that the information about the weapons would be released during the press conference—a confirmation that was made based on information that I had been provided.

Due to a miscommunication, this was not the case, and I felt I had misinformed the minister and, by extension, the Prime Minister. These were difficult, dynamic and demanding circumstances, and everybody was doing their best to provide as much information to the government, the public and the media about this appalling event.

This all took place just over a month after COVID-19 was declared a global pandemic. The pandemic fundamentally changed how we managed this incident.

The unfortunate reality is that the information flow from Nova Scotia colleagues into my office in the hours and days following the shooting wasn't what it should have been. It was for this reason that I called the meeting to express my disappointment and frustration and to outline expectations. Once I was informed during that meeting of the miscommunication and that releasing the information would jeopardize the ongoing investigation, I considered the matter closed and did not pursue it further. This was clearly articulated back to the minister. In fact, to support my assertion on non-interference, this information was not released until several months later.

On the matter of the April 28 meeting itself, it needed to happen. It was essential that I had more timely and accurate information, and it was important that my team understood my expectations going forward. It wasn't helped by the fact that it was a teleconference. I had no visual cues for how my words affected those on the call. In the early days of the pandemic, we didn't have access to the on-screen platforms we do now.

The timing of the meeting itself was not ideal, and I should have been more sensitive to those in attendance—people who had been operating in a high-stress and very emotionally charged environment and had just completed a significant press conference. Given this context, I regret the timing and how I framed the conversation, but the discussion was still necessary.

It wasn't brought to my attention until a year later that there were concerns of political interference stemming from that meeting and that my approach and interactions with my team were in question. Had I known my words and approach had such an effect, I would have definitely made things right sooner. This is who I am.

Let me be clear. I did not interfere in the investigation, I did not receive direction and I was not influenced by government officials regarding the public release of information and, more importantly, on the direction of the investigation. I ensured that operational independence was maintained in all my interactions with government, as I do today.

In closing, I will note that the RCMP is committed to supporting the important work of the Mass Casualty Commission. Any time we have a mechanism to review and improve how we operate is critical.

Thank you.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you, Commissioner.

Now I turn to the deputy commissioner, Mr. Brennan, who has two and a half minutes to complete his opening remarks.

The floor is yours, sir.

July 25th, 2022 / 12:10 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner Brian Brennan Deputy Commissioner, Contract and Indigenous Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon.

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today.

As stated, my name is Brian Brennan and I am the deputy commissioner of contract and indigenous policing. In this capacity, I am responsible for the RCMP's contract and indigenous policing program, which includes overseeing delivery of local policing services in Canada's three territories and in all provinces except for Ontario and Quebec. I am posted here in Ottawa.

For context, prior to starting this position as deputy commissioner, I was the commanding officer in Nova Scotia, which we refer to as H Division. As deputy commissioner, it is my responsibility to keep abreast of, and when appropriate provide guidance related to, serious or significant situations occurring on the ground across our divisions to ensure a uniform level of service and consistent responses to operational issues that arise as a result of our frontline policing responsibilities. Across the RCMP, six divisional commanding officers are direct reports to me, including the four commanding officers in the Atlantic provinces.

In the context of the mass casualty event in 2020, this meant I was supporting H Division by working with national headquarters business lines to ensure that operational requests in support of the division were actioned, and by providing briefing updates to the senior executive committee and other commanding officers. I was in regular contact with the commissioner, the commanding officer of Nova Scotia and her team to gather information and to support their response, including efforts to provide support and resources to the division from other parts of the RCMP across the country.

My focus was on policing operations rather than public communications. Understandably, there were many questions about what was happening on the ground and what information was available to share from the division. The commissioner required timely and regular updates on the evolving situation to support her work and exercise her responsibilities as commissioner. This was appropriate and expected.

With that, I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have on this matter.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Jim Carr

Thank you, Deputy Commissioner.

The time for questions has arrived. We will start this round with Ms. Dancho.

Ms. Dancho, you have six minutes. Take the floor.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the commissioner and deputy commissioner for being here today.

Commissioner Lucki, in an April 28 email from you, you said that you provided to government information that would be released to the public. Correct?

12:15 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

On what date?

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

On April 28 there were several emails from you. I'm thinking of two in particular.

12:15 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes, there were several versions of speaking notes that were being used by the people on the ground in Nova Scotia. That was one of many versions.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Okay. In one of the emails from you on April 28, you confirmed that the information about the weapons would be released in a press conference. Correct?

12:15 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

That would have been the early morning of April 28.

12:15 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

I believe so.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Okay. Thank you.

Deputy Minister Stewart, who appeared just before you, informed the committee earlier of a conversation in which this promise that you mentioned in your opening remarks happened. It was during a discussion with the minister. The deputy minister was not there, but he was aware of this discussion. You mentioned this in your opening remarks. Correct?

12:15 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

It wasn't a promise; it was a confirmation, because I was asked if that information would be included in the media release. I verified through my comms people, who verified with the people on the ground, and at that point they advised that it was, in fact, going to be part of that big media event on April 28.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Just to be clear, the minister asked you if the weapons used in the attack would be mentioned in the press conference.

12:15 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

He was speaking of the weapons in the incident. That would mostly include the weapons seized, because the weapons used were still under forensics. So it was more involved with the weapons seized.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB

Just to confirm, the Minister of Public Safety at the time, Bill Blair, specifically asked you if weapons used during the attack would be mentioned in the press conference of April 28.