Public Safety Committee on July 25th, 2022

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Absolutely not. The only inappropriate pressure was the media.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

If you were to look back, were you asked to do anything out of the ordinary that a government should not be asking you to do in such a situation?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Absolutely not.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Did the minister ask you to do anything inappropriate or questionable as time evolved, not just the beginning but throughout, that would then change the way in which you might answer a question or you might speak to the media?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Absolutely not.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

When answering my colleague Mr. Lloyd, you spoke about how facts on the ground change and how your ability to answer questions based on information that you can provide changes. Can you explain to all of us and to Canadians the context you were under on day one, day three or day five, and how decisions are made that allow you to provide different types of information at different points in time?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It's a communication reel, and any time, from the very first press release that I did or press interview to the very last, I don't have the information in front of me. I go to my comms people, and they go to the people on the ground. The comms person on the ground is part of the command triangle in an investigation, and they're privy to everything. They, with the people who are investigating, decide what can and can't be released and when it can be released. When I'm doing media, that's how I get the information.

But, I'll tell you, I was by myself in the office, unusually, because I usually have a whole team around me who tell me where I need to be, what time I need to be there, and they put the meetings in my calendar. Like I said, it was so unusual in that context because of COVID.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

But, despite that unusual nature of COVID and everything that was happening, you were absolutely crystal clear on the lines that could not be crossed, and you can stand here hand to heart and say that not a single line was crossed, either by you or by the minister, in the type of questions that you were asked, the work that you were asked to do and in the information that you were asked to provide.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I can clearly say that I was not interfered with, I was not directed, and I did not cross any line.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Commissioner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

You have eight seconds left, Mr. Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm good, Mr. Chair. I'll hand it back to you. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you.

I'll take that time and move immediately to Ms. Michaud.

Ms. Michaud, you have two and a half minutes in this round. Please begin.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll pick up where I left off earlier and come back to Mr. Campbell's notes. I'll quote him again.

The Commissioner then said that we didn’t understand, that this was tied to pending gun control legislation that would make officers and the public safer. She was very upset and at one point Deputy Commissioner (Brian) Brennan tried to get things calmed down but that had little effect.

Commissioner, you said you weren't angry and that you are a relatively calm person. I don't want to contradict you, since I was not at that meeting. However, Mr. Campbell was there and, in light of his notes, he contradicts you. So I'll direct my question to Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Brennan, is it correct that you had to try to lower the tension? It is true that sometimes tempers flare during meetings.

As Mr. Campbell recalls it, you tried to calm things down a bit.

Correct?

[D/Commr Brian Brennan]

Yes, that would be accurate. At that point in the meeting, I felt that we were revisiting the same thing over and over again and we needed to start focusing on how to move forward. My focus was on, “Let's learn from these mistakes or these issues. How are we going to do better in communicating in the future?”

That's what I was trying to steer the conversation toward.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You are also of the opinion that there were many communication problems in this whole situation.

Isn't that so?

[D/Commr Brian Brennan]

Yes, there were communication issues because of the volume of information, the size of the investigation, the timeliness of information coming into national headquarters and what was being reported on social media versus what was being reported officially. The complexity of the whole situation was adding to it.

It was something that we really needed to work on to make things clarified for governments, for our employees and for the general public.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

Commissioner, you said that you had discussions with the government regarding the regulations long before they were enacted on May 1, 2020. You say that when the government asks you questions, it is not political interference because they are entitled to ask them.

However, did you feel that the government could take advantage of a situation to advance...

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Madame Michaud, you're out of time. You'll have to pose your question very quickly.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

It would take too long.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Okay.

We are done with that round and we will now move to Mr. MacGregor.

Sir, you too have two and a half minutes. The floor is yours.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Commissioner Lucki, I'm wondering if you can just confirm this for me. When the government asked if the information about the firearms would be released, that question in fact did come from the minister's chief of staff.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

That is my recollection. I know it didn't come specifically from the minister; it came from his office.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay. That was the question.

We know that in the course of a police investigation, the make and model of a firearm used in the commission of a crime is a very significant piece of information. What operational information did you have as commissioner that allowed you at that time to make the confirmation that the information would in fact be released?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It wasn't about the actual firearms that were being used, because that still needed to be determined and attached to the forensics. It was about the information about the firearms that were seized in the vehicle of the perpetrator.