Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

François Daigle  Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada, Department of Justice
Owen Rees  Acting Assistant Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice
Alison Whelan  Chief Strategic Policy and External Relations Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Superintendent Darren Campbell  Criminal Operations Officer, "J" Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, New Brunswick
Lia Scanlan  Director, Strategic Communications Unit, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Jolene Bradley  Director, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Noon

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

We're resuming the meeting. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I'm normally the vice-chair of this committee, but I'm assuming the chair position today. My name is Raquel Dancho.

I will remind committee members to keep their mike on mute when they are not speaking. I am going to begin the first round of questioning myself, and then we're going to go to the other parties.

I'm so sorry. We have opening statements and we're going to go to those first. We'll start with Ms. Whelan.

We would like you to start for five minutes. Please go ahead.

12:05 p.m.

Alison Whelan Chief Strategic Policy and External Relations Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to meet with you today before the committee on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

Before I begin, I would first like to express my sincere condolences to all those who lost loved ones, neighbours and community members, and those who were hurt in Nova Scotia on April 18-19, 2020.

My name is Alison Whelan. I am the chief strategic policy and external relations officer for the RCMP, based at the national headquarters in Ottawa. I have held this position since mid-July 2020. During the time period being examined by this committee, I was the executive director of national security and protective policing, which is situated within the federal policing business line at RCMP national headquarters. Given my position at the time period in question, I was neither aware of nor involved in the internal RCMP meeting on April 28, 2020, nor was I engaged in the request for or the sharing of information with government officials, or communications with the public during the spring of 2020. That said, of course, I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

Thank you, Ms. Whelan.

Mr. Campbell, you have five minutes.

12:05 p.m.

Chief Superintendent Darren Campbell Criminal Operations Officer, "J" Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, New Brunswick

Thank you, Chair and members of the committee.

My name is Darren Campbell, and I'm a serving member of the RCMP. My policing career began in September 1990, when I was sworn into the RCMP. On that day, I swore that I would faithfully, diligently and impartially execute and perform my duties, and to obey and perform all lawful orders that I receive without fear, favour or affection of or towards any person. That was an oath I took very seriously on that day, and one that I continue to take very seriously to this day.

My 32-year career with the RCMP has taken me from the Pacific coast to central Canada and to the maritime provinces. The bulk of my career has been focused in the area of major crimes, major case investigations and criminal operations. As part of my duties, I've been operationally deployed across our entire country and internationally. I'm committed to serving Canadians and the communities I've served and continue to serve.

I'm a proud member of the RCMP and at the present time I am the interim criminal operations officer for the RCMP in the province of New Brunswick.

In April 2020, I held the rank of superintendent and I was the support services officer for the RCMP in Nova Scotia. In that role, I was responsible for a number of specialized policing resources, including, but not limited to, the provincial major crimes unit and the critical incidents program.

As you are well aware, on April 18 and 19, 2020, the RCMP in Nova Scotia responded to a mass casualty incident where Gabriel Wortman took the lives of 22 innocent people and injured many others. This incident became known as the worst mass murder in Canadian history. The perpetrator's actions devastated the victims' families and survivors, and forever changed the lives of many.

This unprecedented massacre spurred a major case investigation entitled Operation H-Strong. The objectives of H-Strong were clear: to fully investigate the murders and attempted murders, and to gather sufficient evidence to determine Gabriel Wortman's involvement in these horrible crimes. Further, the objectives also set out to determine if anyone had assisted Gabriel Wortman in any way before, during or after the crimes, and if so, to gather sufficient evidence to successfully prosecute those believed to be involved.

I'm aware of certain allegations of political interference directed to the RCMP with respect to the investigation of the mass casualty incident. At the heart of the issue is my recollection of a meeting that I was called to attend on April 28, 2020. This meeting took place immediately after I completed a lengthy national press conference, which relayed the facts that could be disclosed to the public at that time. To that point, I had provided more than two hours and 15 minutes of live national news conferences about what the police knew and what we could share with the media and the public.

The meeting had been called by the commissioner of the RCMP and was attended by representatives from the RCMP in Ottawa, as well as Nova Scotia. Prior to that meeting, I did not specifically know why the meeting had been called. However, once the call commenced, the purpose of the call became very clear. The commissioner expressed in no uncertain terms her clear disappointment that I did not release specific information in my news conference related to the firearms used by the gunman. What was relayed to me and others during that call is at issue here today.

I made notes, as is my practice, specific to that meeting. I advised several of my colleagues that I had made notes about what had transpired in that meeting. I disclosed all of my notes as required to the Department of Justice for dissemination to the Mass Casualty Commission. I was not aware that my notes from April 28, 2020, had not been disclosed to the Mass Casualty Commission until recently.

I stand by the notes that I made on April 28, 2020. I have a distinct recollection of the content of that discussion between the commissioner, my colleagues and me. In my view, the purpose of the call was to allow the commissioner to express her disappointment with the fact that I did not relay specific or detailed information about the firearms used by Gabriel Wortman.

On several occasions during that call, the commissioner stated that she felt disrespected, that she was sad and disappointed with the fact that I had not released the information about the firearms used, and that she had been advised that I would release that information. The commissioner also said that she had promised the minister and the Prime Minister's Office that information about the firearms would be included in the press briefing.

As detailed in my notes, I attempted to explain to the commissioner that I could not and would not release that information at that time, as a premature release could have a negative impact on the investigation. It was at that time the commissioner told my colleagues and me that we didn't understand that this was tied to pending legislation that would make officers and the public safer. I left that meeting feeling deflated and, to borrow the commissioner's words, sad and disappointed.

My position was firm. I would continue to protect the integrity of the investigation by not releasing any information that could have a negative impact on ongoing investigative efforts. We owed this to the victims' families, to the survivors, to the public and to those tasked with completing an impartial, competent and professional investigation. There are very good reasons for that.

The approach to not releasing specific information related to firearms remained in place by the investigative team until information related to the firearms used by Gabriel Wortman was released in November 2020 through an access to information and privacy request directed at the Prime Minister's Office, not the RCMP. Within the disclosure of that information via ATIP was specific information related to the firearms used by Gabriel Wortman in the commission of the offences. The release of the unedited information would eventually have a negative impact on individuals and could have harmed the ongoing multi-agency investigation.

In summary, it was never my intention to enter into a political or public disagreement or discussion as to what took place in that meeting, nor was my response to the meeting based on any personal issues with the commissioner or indeed any other individuals, nor was it based on politics. At the heart of the issue was a matter of principle and sound investigative best practices related to protecting the ongoing investigation, which at the time was in its early stages. The principle was the oath that I swore to uphold as a young recruit over three decades ago. I could not and would not break that oath, which is sworn by all members of the RCMP.

Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. I wish to thank you and the committee for the opportunity to speak with you today. I welcome any questions that committee members may have on the issue.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

Thank you, Mr. Campbell.

Ms. Scanlan, you have five minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Lia Scanlan Director, Strategic Communications Unit, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Madam Chair, honourable members of the committee and colleagues. My name is Lia Scanlan. I'm a 14-year civilian member of the RCMP. As of January 2022, my position is that of strategic adviser to the commanding officer of Nova Scotia. In 2020, I was the director of the strategic communications unit for the Nova Scotia RCMP.

Before I go any further, it's important to acknowledge at the outset that we must maintain sight of what took place in Nova Scotia on April 18 and 19, 2020. It was the worst mass casualty in our country's history. Twenty-two people lost their lives, including a colleague. None of us will ever understand what the victims and their families have experienced and continue to go through.

Honouring the victims' lives and keeping their children and families at the forefront is what's most important. Countless others are injured physically and mentally and they must remain in our thoughts as they face a lifetime of healing. What took place forever changed Nova Scotia. It has been indescribable and far-reaching. The strength and resilience of our Nova Scotia communities have been obvious for all to see in the aftermath of this tragedy. People have rallied together in countless ways, a demonstration of the true maritime spirit, and it makes me very proud to call myself a Nova Scotian.

The tragedy of April 2020 and its aftermath has been a very challenging two and a half years professionally and personally. On April 19, 2020, I was involved in the operational response. The provincial strategic communications unit led the communications during the incident and in the weeks and months following, until the completion of the investigation in December 2020. Our focus centred on the victims and the families, the public and our people. I have participated in and respect the work under way by the Mass Casualty Commission, having engaged honestly and wholeheartedly in two separate interviews and again on June 9 of this year at my appearance at the inquiry.

I also respect the work of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, and I'm here in person prepared to answer questions in relation to my experience, and specifically the following: a phone call and email correspondence hours before the press conference on April 28, 2020; a phone call I received after the press conference; a subsequent meeting I attended called by Deputy Brennan on behalf of Commissioner Lucki on the evening of April 20, 2020; a letter I wrote to Commissioner Lucki on April 14, 2021, within days of the one-year anniversary of the tragedy; and any other relevant emails or notes I have, as I've taken much time reviewing the material produced during this period.

I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you very much for having me.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

Thank you, Ms. Scanlan.

We go over to you, Ms. Bradley. Go ahead.

12:15 p.m.

Jolene Bradley Director, National Communication Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Madam Chair, and good afternoon to members of the committee.

My name is Jolene Bradley. I'm currently the director general of communications at the Royal Canadian Mounted Police here in Ottawa. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today on my role during the largest mass shooting incident in our country's history. It was a very difficult time. My thoughts and prayers continue to be with the families and friends of loved ones who have been left behind trying to heal.

In April 2020, I was the RCMP's director of strategic communications for the operations team at the national headquarters in Ottawa. I provided strategic communication advice and support to the communications team in Nova Scotia in the days and weeks following the shootings. As part of the ongoing and routine collaboration between the national headquarters and our colleagues in Nova Scotia, our support included reviewing speaking notes and messaging for media. My goal was to assist our colleagues in Nova Scotia during this significant event.

Our support from Ottawa consisted of coordinating translation and assisting with the creation of visuals for press conferences. I was also responsible for ensuring that communications products, such as talking points and media lines, were shared with communications colleagues at Public Safety Canada and with the RCMP's analyst at the Privy Council Office. This is standard operating procedure with our communications colleagues from both organizations.

To be clear, documents shared with Public Safety and PCO were final communication products, such as speaking notes intended for delivery by RCMP spokespeople during press conferences. Operational information is never shared through communication channels. I also want to emphasize that material is shared for informational purposes only, not for comment or input as it relates to an ongoing investigation. The lines are clear and reinforced through years of collective experiences.

I have worked for the RCMP for 23 years in various communications positions. Managing communications and public affairs around the shootings was difficult and very demanding. I would like to commend the RCMP team in Nova Scotia for their steadfast commitment to the organization and desire to share as much information with the public as possible at the time. We are lucky to have such talent in Nova Scotia, and quite frankly in all communication shops across the country, supporting the RCMP on a daily basis.

Thank you.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

Thank you very much for your opening remarks, to you and to all the witnesses today.

We're going to get started with the rounds of questioning. I will begin with six minutes. We'll go to the Liberal Party, then the Bloc Québécois and the NDP, and then back around again.

To begin, Chief Superintendent Campbell, have you ever sought any legal advice from the Department of Justice to answer our questions or the questions of the commission reactively rather than proactively, given Mr. Leather has indicated he received that advice?

12:15 p.m.

C/Supt Darren Campbell

I have not.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

Thank you very much.

I'm looking at an email, dated April 23, sent by Commissioner Lucki to Chris Leather, Lee Bergerman and Brian Brennan. The commissioner said in her email that the Government of Canada and the Minister of Public Safety were “anxiously awaiting” information about the weapons involved in the mass murder.

Were you aware that the government and the public safety minister were anxiously awaiting this information?

12:15 p.m.

C/Supt Darren Campbell

At that time, I wasn't aware that the government was anxiously awaiting it. I wasn't part of that email chain. However, I was aware of the fact that the commissioner's office was really looking for some detailed information specific to the firearms.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

You mentioned in your opening remarks that you believed releasing the information was “premature” and would have had “a negative impact on the investigation”. Is that correct?

12:15 p.m.

C/Supt Darren Campbell

Yes, that is correct.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

At this point in the investigation, it was only a few days after the incident had happened in Nova Scotia.

12:15 p.m.

C/Supt Darren Campbell

Not only was it only a few days after the incident happened, but there were several other agencies, including the Canada Border Services Agency, the FBI and the ATF, that were conducting investigations in parallel with our investigation. It would have had a negative impact, definitely.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

On the same day that Commissioner Lucki mentioned in an email, on April 23, that the government and the public safety minister were anxiously awaiting this information, there were consultations with the Serious Incident Response Team, which you know is essentially an oversight body for the Nova Scotia RCMP. It advised Lee Bergerman, who said in an email to Chris Leather, Brian Brennan and Commissioner Lucki, “We have permission to release [the information about weapons] internally”.

Were you aware of this email, in which Commissioner Lucki was advised that the information should only be released internally?

12:20 p.m.

C/Supt Darren Campbell

I wasn't aware of that specific email. However, I was aware of the SIRT investigation and the sensitivities in and around what they wished to protect related to the firearms. I had awareness of that.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

Ms. Bergerman was advising Commissioner Lucki that this was to be released internally, and then within half an hour, the commissioner released the information outside of the RCMP. She sent it to the Minister of Public Safety and the national security adviser to the Prime Minister. Were you aware of that?

12:20 p.m.

C/Supt Darren Campbell

I'm now aware of that. However, at the time, I wasn't aware that it was released outside of the RCMP.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

Do you believe it was appropriate for the commissioner to release this information at that time to the Minister of Public Safety?

12:20 p.m.

C/Supt Darren Campbell

I don't believe that it was appropriate at that time. However, I do expect that there would be conversations. From my understanding, the direction was fairly clear that it could not be shared outside of the RCMP.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

Thank you.

You mentioned in your commission testimony that you decided to make the notes on April 28 because “this was going to become a problem for us”, referring to the April 28 meeting, the infamous meeting. What specifically seemed inappropriate about the commissioner's remarks or conduct that sent off these sorts of alarm bells in your mind?

12:20 p.m.

C/Supt Darren Campbell

Chair, as I mentioned, there were investigative objectives, which included the investigation of any other individuals who may have assisted Gabriel Wortman in any way. The release of that information would have had a negative impact on the ongoing investigation, outside of the investigation into Gabriel Wortman's activities.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Raquel Dancho

You wrote in your notes, as we know, that the commissioner said she had promised the Minister of Public Safety and the Prime Minister's Office that this information would be released. Did she say “promised“?