Public Safety Committee on Aug. 16th, 2022

[Owen Rees]

You had a second part to your question, sir, which I didn't quite hear.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Yes. Is there non-partisanship in the decision to release these documents?

[Owen Rees]

These are decisions that are taken by the litigation team working on the inquiry. These are not decisions taken at the political level.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much.

I will return the rest of my time to the chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, MP Chiang.

We now go to Ms. Normandin, of the Bloc Québécois.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Rees, I would like to come back to what you explained to us earlier.

You said that the production of documents could be done automatically by the Department of Justice or it could be done through subpoenas. We know that 39 subpoenas have been produced.

Were the documents produced in bundles that contained the four pages in question produced automatically or pursuant to a subpoena?

[Owen Rees]

Unfortunately, I don't remember. I feel like the commission requested the documents.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

So it was about three months from the time the notes were analyzed to the time they were produced.

Is it possible for the commission to complete its mandate while documents are still being analyzed to determine whether or not they should be redacted?

Could that happen? How can we ensure that certain documents are never produced?

[François Daigle]

Our team members and the commission's counsel have regular discussions during the process. The commission could decide to complete its mandate at the end of August and request that documents one to 2,000, for instance, be forwarded to it. If that were the case, we would work to produce the remaining documents on a priority basis.

The two legal teams consult on a regular basis to ensure that the commission gets what it needs from the government to fulfill its mandate.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I take it, then, that it would be virtually impossible for the commission to complete its mandate while documents are still under analysis somewhere and will never be produced.

[François Daigle]

If we had documents under review that may be relevant to the investigation, we would advise the commission. If the commission told us that it intended to conclude the investigation in three weeks, we would tell it that we had documents to produce.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Chair, I don't think I have enough time to ask another question.

Thank you very much, Mr. Daigle and Mr. Rees.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Now we're going to the NDP.

MP MacGregor, you have two and a half minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is very much related to the last one.

Deputy Minister, at the end of page 5 of the letter that you provided to the committee, you say, “The Department of Justice recognizes that not advising...that the 35 pages were retained for further review was an error.” You also went on to say that justice counsel have “explained how the oversight occurred”, that you've “provided a full accounting of the 35 pages” and that you're “also engaged in extensive discussions with MCC counsel regarding the...document production processes”.

I know you've touched on this a bit, but given the term “extensive discussions”, what our committee would like to know is what tangible processes are now in place to ensure these oversights don't occur any further. Can you elaborate a bit on what's changed within the Department of Justice to ensure that this isn't going to be happening in the future?

[François Daigle]

I'm happy to do that. There's an exchange of correspondence between Mr. Cromwell and Ms. Ward on exactly that. I'm happy to share those letters with the committee so that it's clear for everybody.

The commission suggested that we provide a list of the Government of Canada numbers for documents containing additional pages, and that if there's future disclosure of the additional pages contemplated in the letter, we identify them using those numbers. We've written back to Mr. Cromwell to explain to him exactly how that process should have applied and what the government numbers are.

Going forward, we do have a process, and I'm happy to share those four letters that explain this to the committee.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

If you could table them with the committee, it would be appreciated.

Madam Chair, that concludes my questions. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Raquel Dancho]

Thank you, MP MacGregor.

Now we're going to the last round, beginning with the Conservatives.

MP Lloyd, you have five minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

Earlier today in your testimony, you stated that you didn't see any problem with Chief Superintendent Leather releasing information about the April 28 call because that was already in the public domain. Is that correct?

[François Daigle]

We had already produced documents relevant to that at the commission, yes. I don't understand why Chief Superintendent Leather would say that we advised him he couldn't talk about that, when those documents were already public. In fact, we were all talking about that. That was part of what this committee heard and what the commission heard as well.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

You also said you were not aware of the April 22 call that Chief Superintendent Leather had with Commissioner Lucki until he spoke about it at the inquiry. Is that correct?

[François Daigle]

That's correct. I heard him mention it, I think at this committee, on the 25th. Our counsel, who are working in Halifax on the team, were in hearing that day and didn't hear it, but they heard it from him when he testified at the commission on the 27th, in 2022.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Okay, so your officials did not hear about the call on the 22nd with Commissioner Lucki and Chief Superintendent Leather when he spoke with the justice department.

[François Daigle]

He did not raise it on July 5, when our counsel met with him. He raised it for the very first time when he testified before this committee.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

I find this very interesting, because in a CBC interview, Chief Superintendent Leather stated.... Did he reach out to the department? He reached out to you seeking legal advice. Is that correct?

[François Daigle]

We meet with every witness to help them prepare for their testimony. It's part of the service we provide as the Department of Justice. We prepare the RCMP and other departments for their testimony before the commission.