Public Safety Committee on Feb. 1st, 2022

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'd like to open up the floor to the panellists. If there are any novel points that you haven't raised thus far, perhaps you'd like to raise them.

[D/Commr Stephen White]

I would like to add something, if we have the time.

Earlier, we touched briefly on the work of our forensic labs and their ability to match cartridge casings in criminal activity. They equally have the ability to match a firearm from one crime scene with a firearm from another crime scene. With regard to gang activity, for example, where firearms are probably often involved in multiple firearms-related incidents, having that technology and the ability to do that....

There are two key pieces to that. One is the IBIS, the integrated ballistic information system. We have a limited number of systems across the country. These are the frontline systems that are able to upload those cartridges into the Canadian ballistics identification system, which enables us to search across the country. It also enables us to work with our counterparts in the U.S. to possibly do traces and matches of cartridges and firearms in the U.S.

We're hoping to move forward to increase the number of those systems across the country. The larger the network we have across the country, the easier it's going to be for police services to enter those items into a system locally and upload it into the national system. That's something we're working on, and we're hoping we'll be able to make good progress with that as well.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

That's excellent. Thank you, Mr. White.

I'd like to conclude by saying thank you to Mr. Weber, Mr. Sauvé, Deputy Commissioner White, Mr. Harris and all the others for being here. Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

I'll turn to Ms. Michaud for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead whenever you're ready.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to address Mr. Sauvé and just mention that I have tremendous respect for all security officers, RCMP officers and officers of all other police forces. We see many of them on Parliament Hill these days, and they are all impeccably professional. I have great respect for the work they do.

We are really trying to see, from your point of view, what the solutions are, and what more should be done. You brought forward some interesting proposals, especially in your opening remarks. You talked about more resources, collaboration, and prevention. We discussed that a bit.

Could you give us a little more detail on the national operational investigative program for firearms smuggling that you are suggesting? How do you think prevention in general could further help solve the problem?

[Brian Sauvé]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

I apologize, I prepared my testimony in English. Therefore, all the answers that spring to mind are in English.

To avoid the bastardization of the French language, I will answer in English.

The idea behind a national operational investigative program for firearms in Canada is to coordinate. Whether you're talking about prevention programs, or whether you're talking about enforcement programs, or whether you're talking about community programs, we don't yet have in Canada anyone who is coordinating all of that. Whether it's the Canadian firearms program.... there's very little coordination of everything. As I mentioned earlier, there's no requirement right now for municipal, provincial, or even the RCMP detachment to send guns for tracing unless they need to be used as evidence in court.

Do we need to change how we approach that and how we look at it? It might not have come across properly, but, for example, I've been on a number files in which an estate is being settled. Person X dies and it is discovered that they had three firearms that were not registered. There's no requirement for me or the police officer to send them for tracing to find out if they were used in crimes. I can send them for destruction. There are different things like that.

As far as outreach goes, I think Canada needs to get better. We as Canadians really need to get better about taking the lustre off of a life of crime. What does that mean? It could be something as simple as violence in video games. I don't know, but does that have an impact on our children and how we bring them up? A lot of things we can do better, and we really need to look at the broad picture.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

I will move to Mr. MacGregor.

The floor is yours for two and a half minutes. Take it away.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for the RCMP, and I'm not sure which member would be best suited to answer the question. In today's meeting we have occasionally touched on the links between the firearms trade and the drug trade. We know the opioid crisis is leaving a wake of carnage for so many families. In fact, in my home province of British Columbia, the life expectancy has actually decreased because of the number of people who are dying from the supply of toxic street drugs.

To the RCMP, can you touch on what the introduction of fentanyl and carfetanil has done to the drug trade and what the effects have been on the people who are trafficking in drugs? Has it impacted their need for firearms? Is there a marked increase for turf such that they are trying to control ports of entry, places where it's being distributed and so on? Can you touch on that link a little bit more?

[D/Commr Stephen White]

Thank you for your question.

I would say that traditionally with regard to gangs and organized crime being involved in drug trafficking, that has always led to accompanying firearms. With regard to the transition to, I'll use fentanyl and methamphetamine, for example, there are huge markets right now in Canada for those drugs. There continues to be a huge market for cocaine, which has always been more of a staple for organized crime groups in terms of drug importation and distribution in Canada.

As I mentioned earlier, we've seen a big transition by a lot of organized crime groups moving into the fentanyl market and moving into the methamphetamine market. I mentioned a CISC public report that recently came out, which identified that there were in excess of 250 organized crime groups across the country that have transitioned into being involved in the fentanyl market and over 300 organized crime groups that have transitioned and are now heavily involved in the methamphetamine market. It's a big market, and whatever the drug is—whether it's cocaine, fentanyl, or meth—if the demand is there, you are going to get groups that are moving into it, both gangs and organized crime. With that comes competition between gangs and organized crime, and that does foster a potential increase in violence.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lloyd, we'll go over to you for five minutes whenever you are ready.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Mr. Chair, I think I'm taking the next time slot.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

That's all right.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you for all the very good and useful evidence that we've received so far.

There's been a line of questioning about the source of firearms used in crime. I'm concerned about how good this data is, how good our tracing tools are and whether it's even mandatory for the police forces across the country to submit the firearms used in crime to tracing to discover the source of them. I understand that it's not a mandatory requirement.

Mr. Sauvé, I'll probably go over to you. In your evidence, you told us about the concept of developing a national operational investigation program.

How do you think that this additional tool could be useful for us to get better data about the source of guns used in crime?

[Brian Sauvé]

I realize that this could be considered ironic because you have a labour union here that's asking for more members. One of the challenges that we see in gun crime in Canada is actual coordination. As an evidence-based union, we try to bring forth positions that are based in evidence. With all the data that we've been able to collate, it's challenging to put it all together.

Being able to have a coordinated centre.... I understand the idea has been studied a little bit from the RCMP perspective, but it's never materialized. It would be to be able to coordinate efforts from integrated border enforcement teams and national weapons enforcement support teams, the Canadian firearms program and the chief armourers to bring us some data, so that policy makers such as yourselves will have one source to be able to make best decisions from as you move forward.

What's worked? What hasn't worked? Where should we devote more funding? Where should we devote more outreach? Those types of things are what we need to look at from an NOIP perspective.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Good. Thank you for that.

Do you have any comments about the suggestion that police services across the country should be mandated to submit the firearms they seize for tracing? It's not just voluntary and it's not just to investigate that one particular crime, but for data-keeping purposes.

[Brian Sauvé]

I think that would be a best practice.

Perhaps before firearms are sent for destruction, they should be recorded. They should not necessarily be traced, but perhaps recorded and test-fired and all of that great stuff.

I realize that now I'm making a suggestion that increases the mandate of the Canadian firearms program. In concert with that, I'd say you'd have to increase the resources allotted to the Canadian firearms program in order to meet that mandate.

Yes, I think it would be a best practice.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to pivot over to Mr. Weber.

You gave us a lot of very useful information in data about the operation of border security and the co-operation between the RCMP and the CBSA. Could you expand on that a bit and perhaps also reference the levels of co-operation between CBSA and the American Homeland Security?

[Mark Weber]

I think some of those questions would be best directed at the CBSA, but I can answer some of that.

I do know that there is coordination. Our integrated border task teams—our IBET teams—work together and do some work on patrolling the borders between ports.

From our side, our members have very little ability to participate in much of anything outside of our specific ports of entry. Having increased participation outside of the port is really one of the things we'd like to see addressed.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Maybe somebody from CBSA could jump in as well on the level of co-operation between CBSA, the RCMP and also Homeland Security.

[Scott Harris]

I can speak to that.

We have an excellent working relationship with both agencies as well as other related partners such as ATF, CBP, and local police of jurisdictions in various parts of this country and on the other side of the border. As was just mentioned, we have our integrated border enforcement teams.

A number of our resources are involved in these teams—not just the individuals working at ports of entry, but also our intelligence staff and others. Again, it's to ensure that we are sharing information, but also to coordinate on enforcement activities where we can, so that we leverage that intelligence to produce meaningful outcomes.

We do a number of referrals every year to police partners on both sides of the border, which has led to investigative actions that are away from the port of entry. We often talk about the number of seizures that we make, but CBSA plays a significant assisting role in stimulating follow-through that leads to investigations, arrests and seizures inland. A number of those have been profiled in media releases, such as operation Centaure, as has been mentioned a number of times. I would say there have been operations like that in every region across Canada as a result of those partnerships.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

No. You're just right.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

All right. That's what I thought.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I would now like to ask Mr. Noormohamed to take the floor.

You have five minutes, whenever you're ready.