Public Safety Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[Murray Smith]

Again, I have to point out that I don't have every make and model memorized. I don't recall whether that shotgun has a detachable magazine or a fixed magazine. If it has a fixed magazine, it's unaffected. If it has a detachable magazine, it might be, but I'd need to look up the particulars for that particular shotgun.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

If it has the capability—and I think that's what's concerning many Canadians watching today—of having a detachable magazine, it will be included in the paragraph 84(1.2)(g) proposed by G-4.

[Murray Smith]

Detachable magazines for shotguns are relatively uncommon, even these days. It's more likely that a shotgun that's designed for hunting would have a tubular fixed magazine, and therefore would be unaffected.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

The thing is, though, that this is where the confusion is, and you're an expert. I know quite a bit about firearms too. There is even confusion among us with regard to whether it will be or not. The capability is the key language. If something is capable in the future of being deemed a certain way, this is, again, affecting firearms and hunters across this country.

I'll keep going because I know time is—

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I have a point of order.

There is so much speculation here that we should be looking at the potential that certain of these weapons could be restricted in the future. To suggest that it's going to be captured is all premature. To suggest that it's going to be included in the list.... We haven't dealt with the list yet. Why don't we wait until we deal with the list?

I would suggest that we request that the member provide amendments if there are weapons that he feels should not be included on the list rather than sitting here and speculating. I think the committee's time could be put to better use.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen.

I would remind Mr. Zimmer that this amendment has not yet been moved. We are debating G-4, not G-46.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Actually, I'm just referring to G-4 and this last firearm.

In answer to the question from the member, the onus is really on the government that's putting forward this legislation and the amendments included to really prove its case, without a shadow of a doubt, that certain firearms are not included on the list.

That's what I'm trying to do today. I'm trying to give Canadians a good impression, based on expert testimony at the end of the table, of whether they will be. It's speculative, but based on that definition, they certainly could be. Talking about the capacity opens up a whole bunch of firearms that are not in G-46 but certainly will be included as a result of the paragraph 84(1.2)(g) proposed by G-4.

Let me keep going.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Rather than speculate and suggest, why don't we have some suggestions and recommendations that would solve this? This would be a far more productive use of our time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen.

[Tony Van Bynen, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Recommendations to make amendments would be appreciated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Van Bynen. We'll let Mr. Zimmer carry on.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

The easy answer is to repeal Bill C-21. Pull the legislation. There it is. That solves everybody's problem here.

Anyway, I'll move on.

The Remington 870 DM shotgun is a semi-automatic shotgun with a detachable clip. It is, at times, used for hunting. Will this firearm be included on the prohibited list of Bill C-21 and associated amendments?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Once again, when you talk about a list, we haven't got a list for G-4. “Associated amendments” is pretty broad. It's kind of hard for anybody to answer these questions this way. I really encourage you to drill into the definition, which would be very helpful, I think.

Anyway, I certainly don't want to impede your inquiry about that, but I really would encourage you to focus on G-4.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Mr. Chair, it is directly speaking to G-4 in that particular paragraph.

Anyway, can we have the answer from the firearms experts, please?

[Murray Smith]

My recollection is that the Remington model 870 shotgun is a pump-action shotgun.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I'm asking about the semi-automatic variant of that particular firearm.

[Murray Smith]

If such a thing exists, the definition would apply.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I'd show you the image, but I know it's....

[Murray Smith]

The definition would apply to the shotgun if it were semi-automatic and centrefire and has a detachable magazine, which appears to be the case, and the capacity of that magazine exceeded five cartridges. If the shotgun meets all those criteria, then it would be prohibited if that particular amendment passes in its existing form.

Those factors are all relatively easy for anyone to assess.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I had an 870 Marine Magnum. We used to go fishing in the back country in B.C. and I used to pack that just in case a grizzly bear came upon us as we were fishing. It's obvious that it is included based on the definition, but the concern for many firearms owners across Canada is the variant option.

As the basis of the gun or the firearm is an 870, a well-known firearm that's probably been in most farmers' gun vaults over the last 100 years, the concern is that while this one might not be included, what about all the variants? That would put many of the shotguns under this prohibition.

[Murray Smith]

Previously we were talking about the evergreening definition, and the variant or modified-version clause is not applicable to that definition. The variant or modified version applies only to the schedules, and the Remington model 870 does not appear in the schedules anywhere, so there are no variants that would be affected now or in the future.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Are you saying that the Remington 870 DM won't be prohibited?

[Murray Smith]

No, I'm not in a position to restrict what any future government would do. What I'm saying is that—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I mean based on G-4 and that proposed paragraph 1(1.2)(g).

[Murray Smith]

G-4 is the evergreening definition. This definition would apply to any future model if the manufacturer of the firearm were to make it in such a way that it met the criteria of that definition.