Public Safety Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I call this meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 51 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

We will start by acknowledging that we are meeting on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin people.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, June 23, 2022, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C-21, an act to amend certain acts and to make certain consequential amendments with regard to firearms. The committee is resuming clause-by-clause consideration, and we will resume shortly, with Mr. Zimmer having the floor.

Before we resume debate, I will now welcome the officials who are with us today.

With us once again from the Department of Justice, we have Paula Clarke, counsel, and Phaedra Glushek, counsel, both from the criminal law policy section, and from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, we have Rachel Mainville-Dale, acting director general, firearms policy. Joining us freshly today, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Rob Daly, director of strategic policy, Canadian firearms program, and Murray Smith, technical specialist in the Canadian firearms program.

Thanks to all of you for joining us today. Your assistance is most appreciated. Your answers to our numerous technical questions will help us to fulfill our duties in the law-making process, and I thank you again.

I'd also note for the committee members that there is a discussion happening, as there is a desire to bring in Minister Mendicino for estimates at some point in the next week or so. The work plan we adopted provides for that after Bill C-21; however, if I can get unanimous consent to seek an extra meeting slot next week for at least one of the ministers to attend, I would ask.... Wait a minute.

I have Madame Michaud and then Mr. Calkins.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will allow you to continue what you were saying, but there are some things I am not sure I understood correctly.

You say that we could host ministers next week in the context of the supplementary estimates (B), and that would be in additional meetings, rather than during the usual committee hours. Is this correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

That is the suggestion I am making. We have a work plan and we're trying to follow it. The work plan is that we would bring ministers in on estimates after Bill C-21 and preferably before the break. This is a suggestion that the clerk and I look for another meeting slot next week and that if we find one, we invite one of the ministers or both ministers to attend in that slot. I'm looking for unanimous consent for that.

Before we proceed on that, Mr. Calkins wishes to speak, I believe.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I would appreciate being put on the speakers list, not for this particular issue that you're talking about right now, but after whoever is on the speaking list for dealing with the amendments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Okay. We'll put you on there.

Mr. Motz, I believe, wants to be on the speaking list, or is it to speak on this matter?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

It's on this matter, Chair, if I may. Thank you very much.

Obviously we don't agree to unanimous consent on any additional meetings. We're fine with pausing a review of Bill C-21 if the ministers need to attend, understanding that we'd return to Bill C-21 after those appearances are done.

Any extra meetings will have an impact on other resources in other committees elsewhere. That's always a concern that we have. I don't think any extra meetings are required at all, to be honest with you. If necessary, we can pass the estimates for the ministers on division, because we're going to have the main estimates coming after the new year anyway.

I don't see any need to have any extra meetings, and we certainly don't support that proposal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Go ahead, Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want a little bit of clarity. First of all, I would like to confirm that it is both the ministers who would be attending. Second of all, I would like to confirm that December 10 is the deadline for the ministers to come for the supplementary estimates, because if that is the case, this is quite urgent. If not, if Mr. Motz is correct, then it's not urgent. However, if December 10 is the deadline, I would suggest that ideally it could happen during committee time, but ministers, of course, don't always have control over their own schedules, so we would have to be flexible and be willing to try to find a compromise for a time when the ministers are available.

From my perspective, from the NDP perspective, it would be very important to have the ministers testify before this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

The deadline for returning our report is the 10th, I believe; however, we can have ministers afterwards. We have done this in the past and we can do so going forward.

I believe it's a moot point at this point because we're not going to get unanimous consent to do this.

I would suggest to the committee that we talk about this among ourselves over the coming few days and see what we can work out to find a time for the ministers to come.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Just to be clear, Mr. Chair, can you confirm that there is no unanimous consent to hold additional meetings? In any case, I for one do not give my consent.

If we are to receive ministers to discuss supplementary estimates before December 10, that will have to be during the normal sitting hours of the committee. We can suspend our consideration of Bill C‑21 while we receive ministers, but I do not agree that we should add sitting hours next week.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

That conforms with what Mr. Motz has said, so there is no unanimous consent.

We do have a work plan that we all agreed to that was passed by the committee. It was that the estimates would happen after Bill C-21. I understand things have changed a little bit, but let us talk among ourselves and see if we can work something out.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to ask for a vote on this so that we can at least be done with it and we don't waste any more of everybody's time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We can't actually vote on this. We can't move a motion, because we have a motion on the floor. That's why I was looking for unanimous consent.

Let's try to find a way forward on this behind the scenes. It would be good to have the ministers here to talk to them on the various issues, but let's see what we can work out off-line. Is that okay?

That being the case, let us resume our deliberations on G-4.

Mr. Zimmer, you have the floor.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our witnesses for coming. It's nice to see the addition of some experts on the file. At the last committee meeting I was here and asked many questions and didn't get answers. That's fair. Again, I say that you don't know what you don't know, so let's get on with it.

I think the question of the day in Canada, especially in our firearms community, is whether there are hunting rifles on the new prohibited list.

I have composed a list. It's not a comprehensive list, but it's several firearms. It gives Canadians a good idea of what's on the list.

Is the Benelli R1 semi-automatic hunting rifle prohibited?

[Phaedra Glushek, Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

Thank you for the photo. Whereabouts is that listed on the schedule, if you can refer to the schedule? We cannot comment on whether or not a gun listed is a hunting rifle or not. What we can say is whether it meets the criteria or not. If it meets the criteria, it is on the list.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Maybe these questions would be better asked of Mr. Smith and Mr. Daly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Yes, go ahead, but I would remind Mr. Zimmer that we can't use props.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Yes. It's just for quick reference. I know the experts at the end of the table might see the image and be able to get a quicker answer based on the image. That's why I have them.

Is the Benelli R1 semi-automatic hunting rifle prohibited?

[Phaedra Glushek]

Can you point out where it is on the list you're referring to. We see the picture, but—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I'm sorry. I'm asking Mr. Smith and Mr. Daly.

[Phaedra Glushek]

Sure, and that might help my colleague see where it is on the schedule. Could you point that out for us?

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Let me just say this. The list was composed of the individuals sitting at the end of the table, who are the experts who have been participating in building this legislation. I hope that you would at least know which firearms are on that list or what firearms are not on the list.

The question is to Mr. Smith and Mr. Daly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I would remind everyone that the list in G-46 that we made public has not yet been moved, of course. It may change at some point.

Given that it's at least 480 pages, we might give the witnesses some time to—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I know, as a person who got the list recently.... I wasn't involved in compiling that list. I've been through it several times in the last seven days. I would suggest this should be a fairly straightforward answer.

[Murray Smith, Technical Specialist, Canadian Firearms Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

The Benelli R1 rifle is not listed in either schedule 1 or schedule 2.