Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2022

[Murray Smith]

By larger, I'm presuming you mean more energetic or closer to the 10,000-joule limit. The hunting literature in general describes an ideal energy level for each kind of game animal. However, that's generally not regulated by law, at least not in Canada—other countries do that. In some ways, the provincial hunting regulations limit the energy by indirect means. They won't allow a cartridge, for example, with a bullet smaller than a certain diameter, which indirectly affects the energy level of the cartridge.

As the energy level increases, generally, the firearm becomes more suitable for hunting bigger game and less suitable for hunting smaller game. One reason is that the bullet that's too energetic may cause damage to the game animal and make it unsuitable for eating afterwards. Another relates to the personal comfort of the hunter. As the energy level goes up, so does the recoil, and while opinions vary, owners will have certain ideas of how much recoil they're prepared to accept when they're out hunting. Lastly, the more energetic a projectile is, the further it will travel in general and the more damage it will cause when it impacts. When you get into very high energy ranges, then the issue of the hunter being able to control where the bullet lands when they're out hunting becomes more problematic.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

There's a lot to unpack in what you just said, so let's take a step back. Of the common calibres that are used, how many of them would require a barrel that could fire in excess of, we'll call it, 10,000 joules?

[Murray Smith]

I'm not sure I understood the question, could you repeat it, please?

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

We talked about all these different.... When we were talking earlier, you mentioned the .223 Remington, and you mentioned the .308 and 10,000 joules. How many of those calibres would require a barrel that could fire in excess of 10,000 joules?

[Murray Smith]

First of all, the barrel is designed to accept a particular calibre, so if you have a hunting rifle that is .308 Winchester calibre, that means the chamber inside the barrel is manufactured to accept .308 Winchester calibre ammunition and only that ammunition. There are some exceptions, but broadly speaking, a barrel is designed for a single calibre and the choice of calibre will influence the kind of barrel that the firearm has. Does that address your question?

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Yes.

We know that there are weapons that can fire over 10,000 joules that were previously prohibited by the order in council. What would—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Chair, I have a point of clarification. I want to get a clarification on that last line of questioning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Go ahead, Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Could you explain to the committee, because this is important, how joules are measured in a firearm? Can you broadly give a technical answer to that? How is the number of joules a firearm can produce measured?

[Murray Smith]

Joules represent the energy level of the projectile. It's basic physics. It's the amount of energy of motion that a projectile has. As it applies to the prohibitions of clause 96, it is the muzzle energy that counts. That's the energy of the projectile as the bullet leaves the muzzle of the firearm.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Is it measured by the mass of the projectile, the amount of gunpowder behind it, etc.?

[Murray Smith]

Joules is the measurement. That's the quantity that's being measured. That is a combination of the mass of the projectile and the speed of the projectile. There is a formula that uses those two factors that will allow you to calculate the joules.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm a physics major. It's half the mass times the square of the velocity.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I just wanted it on the record. Thank you.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you for that clarification. I think we're all better off knowing that now.

We know that there are weapons that can fire above 10,000 joules that were previously prohibited by the order in council. What would commonly fire above that limit?

[Murray Smith]

There are two broad categories of firearms that would be chambered for cartridges that develop 10,000 joules or more. One is military firearms. It's quite common for military firearms to be over that limit. The second would be rifles designed for hunting large game animals such as African game like elephants and rhinoceroses, animals of that size. It will involve the use of firearms that are chambered for calibres around 10,000 joules. They are not all over. There are calibres that are recognized as being elephant gun cartridges, if I can use a less precise term, some of which are over 10,000 joules and some under 10,000 joules. Where you see that level of energy in a hunting application, it is for large African game in general.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm trying to understand what use we would have in Canada for something that would fire over 10,000 joules.

[Murray Smith]

I can speak to what they have been used for to the present. One is that there are individuals in Canada who travel to Africa to hunt big game animals who have their own rifle. They prefer to take their own rifle with them, so they own a rifle in Canada that is not routinely used for hunting in Canada but is the firearm they would take with them when they go somewhere else to hunt a game animal that requires that level of energy.

The second broad use that occurs at present is very long-range hunting or target shooting. These are circumstances where there's an attempt to harvest game or hit a particular target at distances of a kilometre or more.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Let's say I were to fire 10,000 joules at 200 metres, and I were to hit a deer, what would happen to that deer, if I were to hit it? I'm probably a terrible shot, but let's assume I were to hit it.

[Murray Smith]

There are a variety of factors that feed into that. One is that it depends on where exactly you hit the deer. Assuming that the bullet goes through the vital organs, then it's very likely the deer would be killed. There could be some destruction of the game meat, but that would be very dependent on the construction of the bullet. Some bullets are built very solidly because they're intended for penetrating deep into large animals like elephants. On a deer, the bullet would probably pass through the deer, not causing much more damage than you would expect from an ordinary hunting calibre, simply because of the construction of the bullet.

The answer to your question is that it is highly dependent on the exact circumstances, the exact calibre of high-energy ammunition, the exact construction of the bullet and where on the deer the bullet impacts.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

In this scenario, could I achieve the same objective using something materially less than 10,000 joules?

[Murray Smith]

Yes, it's generally accepted that a deer can be successfully harvested with a rifle that produces something in the range of 3,000 joules. The recommendations vary somewhat, a little more, a little less, but around the 3,000-joule mark is typical of what the hunting experts would recommend for a calibre that is intended to be used for hunting deer.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Using the 10,000 joule versus 3,000 joule example, how common is it for someone to use 10,000 joules, semi-automatic fire, versus 3,000 in those scenarios?

[Murray Smith]

We have no data. The firearms in question are non-restricted, so there are no controls on the transport and use of those firearms for hunting.

I'm not aware of any restrictions on the use of large calibres for hunting, although it's possible there is some regulation in the provincial domain that I'm not aware of.