Public Safety Committee on May 11th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

Is there any discussion?

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I find this addition, this amendment, absolutely frustrating and infuriating. As a hunter, I sometimes wait eight to 10 years for the privilege of being able to pursue a hunt in my home province. I would be outraged if, through no fault of my own, the Government of Canada did not renew my possession and acquisition licence on time, and I drove 200 or 300 miles to a hunt that I payed $5,000, $10,000, $15,000 or $20,000 for, just to find out that my magazine is faulty and I cannot go to the store and purchase a replacement one because of a clause like this.

The governing body that determines when an applicant gets their licence renewed is the one that bears the responsibility. The reason the extension of six months was added on was that governments typically can't meet the obligation of getting a firearms licence renewal processed in a timely fashion, even according to what the firearms centre says it does on its website.

I deal with this in my office constantly. The number of people in this country who follow the guidelines on the website, do a renewal, and do not get their licences returned in time, who are now going to be.... It's punitive, absolutely punitive, to somebody who acts in good faith, not only in the acquisition of their licence but in the acquisition of their hunting permit and the purchase of a hunt.

I'm asking the officials. If this clause becomes law, what we are saying, in essence, is that unless your.... You have to wait. It doesn't matter; the hunt will not wait for you. The season in the province or territory in which you are hunting will not wait for you. You might even only have a season of a week. As a matter of fact, in January of this year, I had a three-day elk hunt that I waited 10 years for. Ten years I waited for that opportunity, and if I would have lost the magazine for my Savage rifle, if this clause had been law and I had been by myself. Because my PAL was in the six-month grace period, I would not have been allowed to go to the store and get a replacement magazine.

Is that correct?

[Sandro Giammaria]

In the circumstances you have just described, yes. You wouldn't be able to purchase a magazine. I would just like to point out that you wouldn't be able to use the firearm either, and that is already in the Firearms Act.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

This is the point.

I understand the notion, and I understand that she is making it consistent. But I want to make it clear to every hunter who is being told right now by members of other political parties that these laws are not going after you as a hunter, make it explicitly clear to you, as a hunter, that you will potentially be denied your hunt because you cannot use your gun, you cannot buy replacement ammunition and you cannot buy a replacement cartridge or any part of a firearm, even though through no fault of the hunter—

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Calkins said “will” and he said “potentially”. Could he, in his statement, just clarify what he means? Is it that it “will” or that it “potentially will”—because there is a difference there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you.

I think that is debate, but if Mr. Calkins wants to clarify....

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I just want to put it on the record, and I am being crystal clear. If I am not allowed, because I have applied for a renewal of my PAL and it doesn't get processed in a timely fashion, I will be denied a hunting season, even if I have paid upwards of thousands of dollars for a hunt, which I cannot get refunded.

I think it is incumbent on the MPs who are here at this table to understand the consequences of not only this decision, but the decisions that have already been made earlier on. By denying somebody who, through no fault of their own is now going to be denied, perhaps, a once in a lifetime opportunity.... In some parts of this country, people wait their entire lives to get an opportunity for one specific hunt. As a matter of fact, in B.C., in terms of your opportunity to get a Roosevelt elk draw, you may never get one in your entire lifetime, and if you were to get one.... This particular clause is punitive, absolutely punitive, to the hunting community.

I'll cede my time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We'll go now to Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Could the officials just clarify this? We made an amendment last night to add the requirement to have a licence for a magazine. This is just updating a coordinating amendment to ensure that it's in compliance with the decision we made last night. Is that correct?

[Rachel Mainville-Dale]

Yes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I just want to remind the Conservative members, and in particular Mr. Calkins, that the vote in requiring a licence for a magazine was passed unanimously last night, including by Conservative members.

I would like Mr. Calkins to go and look Reese Fallon's family in the face and tell them that the elk hunt is more important than her life, because the shooter on the Danforth did not require a licence to go and buy a magazine before he went and tried to slaughter people on the Danforth.

I'm sorry that Mr. Calkins doesn't like this amendment, but Conservatives voted—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Was that person a PAL holder waiting for a renewal of their licence?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

No cross-talk, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I have the floor, Mr. Calkins.

You're complaining about not being able to do something and waiting for 10 years. Reese Fallon will never be able to get married. She'll never be able to have children, and you're complaining about not killing an elk.

I'm sorry, Mr. Calkins, but I find that so offensive.

I was very proud of members last night on this committee that we unanimously passed the amendment that Ms. Michaud brought forward to require a licence for magazines. All this is doing is changing something that's already in the law, to add magazines to it, and I would hope that members would support that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would point out that the Conservative members who were present last night voted unanimously for the first amendment regarding cartridge magazines and the subsequent amendments.

There is no need to scare hunters. As Mr. Giammaria said, they would not be able to go hunting or use their firearms in any event. It is not our fault if the government is slow to renew licences or if the person applies or does things at the last minute.

I find it a little offensive that Mr. Calkins is not even listening to the answers that are given to his questions. I invite him to vote in favour of this amendment. It is a coordinating amendment. There is nothing more to be said.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

We have Mr. Steinley, followed by Mr. Julian.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

We'll turn down the political rhetoric a little bit here.

I just have a couple of anecdotes from over the last couple of years.

I wasn't here last night, obviously, so my question would be if the grace period has been shortened up for...?

[Kellie Paquette]

No.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

How long is that grace period still?

[Kellie Paquette]

It's still six months.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I have a couple of anecdotes from the last couple of years.

It happened to my neighbour, who is a very avid hunter and very law-abiding. He's had his guns and magazines and shells in his gun safe for the last three years, because throughout COVID-19 he had not been able to get the renewal of his RPAL or his PAL, through no fault of his own. Actually, at one point in time they said, because people weren't getting their mail through Canada Post.... He has had to send his application in twice now, and obviously that grace period was gone so he missed two years of hunting, through no fault of his own. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances where law-abiding—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry, Mr. Steinley, but your time is up.

Are there any further comments?

Mr. Julian, go ahead.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I'm a little confused by the Conservatives on this. They voted for similar amendments yesterday, so I'm confused that, while they understood the sense of the amendments yesterday, today those same amendments provoke a completely different reaction.

I've been somewhat dismayed by the intent of some Conservative members in the House to try to present the bill as still having the amendments that we forced the withdrawal of months ago. Conservatives tried to take credit for it, but now they seem to be, at least in the House, indicating that the amendments are still there. I think that misinformation is not helpful at all.

In this sense, I don't understand why they would vote for similar amendments yesterday and now say today that these are problems. It doesn't seem to be consistent at all.

I do recognize that this government is slow in a whole range of areas, including on renewal of licences. That is true, and we've seen it in a number of different areas. I had similar concerns with the Harper government that was so slow in a whole range of other areas. That is an administrative issue that I think does need to be followed up on, but it's different from considering the bill and considering the amendments that are before us now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

We'll go now to Mr. Noormohamed.

You have three minutes and 19 seconds this time.