Public Safety Committee on May 30th, 2023

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank my colleagues for being here. I appreciate it.

Earlier, the minister corrected me regarding the annual budget that would be allocated to the new Public Complaints and Review Commission. If memory serves, it would be $112.3 million over six years, which is about $18.7 million a year. After that, after those six years, it will be about $19.6 million.

Is that correct, Mr. Koops?

[Randall Koops]

Based on the current fiscal year, the budget for the commission is $15.7 million. In the previous year, it spent $10 million.

The amount of $112.3 million over six years is allocated to the project as a whole, including the resources that the commission will need and those that will be used to establish activities within the agencies. So this amount is not just allocated to the commission, it will also be used for implementing the bill as a whole.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

When you talk about the $15.7 million budget allocated to the commission, you're talking about the current Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP, which already exists.

[Randall Koops]

The government is in the process of increasing funding to the commission.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Why did you choose to establish a complaints commission to review complaints from both the RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency, rather than two separate commissions? Was it due to funding considerations?

Will having two agencies affect processing times for complaints?

[Randall Koops]

Yes, we hope that it will shorten processing times, and we hope to increase the commission's capacity.

The government decided to create a single commission to follow the existing national security model. We want to establish agencies that follow a type of activity across the federal government. Parliament has already codified the establishment of the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency for national security activities.

The government has now introduced a bill that will do the same thing in law enforcement and the two major operational agencies.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

I also wonder about feedback on the handling of complaints. I will give you an example. Once Bill C‑20 has received royal assent, how long do you feel it will take for the commission to be set up and ready to receive complaints? Will the RCMP complaints currently being processed be dealt with by this new commission or will it be too late for that? Earlier, Ms. Damoff mentioned a one-year limitation period.

Could this have consequences for complaints that could be dealt with right away?

[Randall Koops]

All complaints currently before the commission will continue to be handled in the same way under the new regulations.

With regard to feedback, paragraph 10 of clause 113 of Bill C‑20 specifies that complaints can be filed with the commission even before the new sections come into force.

With regard to the new clauses coming into force, you must understand that this is a fairly significant project. We're talking about establishing a new agency that will absorb a small agency within the federal government and the need to establish an external review commission within the Canada Border Services Agency that can respond to complaints. We also have to bring in computer systems, provide training and so on. We anticipate that full implementation will take at least 18 months.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

Clause 35 of Bill C‑20 requires that the new commission do something to provide assistance upon request to an individual wishing to file a complaint. I'm wondering what kind of assistance is being considered.

Can we hope that complainants will have access to interpretation services, for example, or to legal services? The word “assistance” is quite broad. I'm wondering what exactly is being planned. I can't help but draw a parallel with a francophone complainant from Ontario—it's a completely different file—in a sexual assault complaint. She wanted interpretation services in her language, and due to the Jordan decision and the lack of interpreters, she was unable to have her trial.

Could that type of assistance, such as interpretation services, be available to complainants?

[Randall Koops]

The term is quite broad and that was done on purpose.

We work on the principle that the commission itself is able to better understand the needs of complainants. Therefore, we're proposing a fairly broad piece of legislation.

Right now, I know that the existing commission is putting in a great deal of effort to make the process more accessible, particularly to official language minority communities and other minority language communities. The commission is working hard to make the process accessible to most people.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Koops.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

We go now to Mr. Julian.

Mr. Julian, go ahead, please. You have six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have a lot of questions, so I'll ask them right away.

Following up on the question around reservists, I was interested in your response to Ms. Damoff. At this point, reservists are not covered. The only alternative for the RCMP, when there is a complaint against a reservist, is to terminate their connection with the RCMP.

Did I understand that properly, that no other measures can be taken and there's nothing in addition to that?

[Alfredo Bangloy]

Just to elaborate on this further, subsection 11(2) of the RCMP Act states that the act does not apply to reservists except as provided for in the regulations. There currently are no regulations covering the reserve program, so potentially some regulations could be developed.

As far as dealing with complaints against reservists goes, first of all, they must comply with all RCMP operational policies applied to their assigned duties, as well as all mandatory training and those types of requirements. If a complaint is received involving a reservist, then an investigation is done. The reservist supervisor reviews the investigation report and can take whatever measures they deem fit. It could be training; it could be operational guidance, and I suppose in some circumstances it could be ceasing to use that reservist.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Can you share with us how many complaints we've had over the last five years toward reservists?

[Alfredo Bangloy]

I apologize. I don't have that information with me. I can endeavour to bring that back to the committee.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That would be terrific. Thank you very much.

Continuing on, Ms. Damoff had an interesting line of questioning. Around the service standard, you said that 54% of the time it's resolved within 90 days. I'm interested in how you define resolved. Is that a complaint that is dealt with satisfactorily? Is that a complaint that is initiated? What are your definitions in terms of that 54% resolution rate?

[Alfredo Bangloy]

I believe there may have been a misunderstanding. When I was discussing that, I was referring to the investigation timeline. Our service standard is to complete an investigation within 90 days, and 54% of the time we are doing that. We're working on developing and improving our ability to investigate and to reduce those timelines. We're within our own self-imposed service standard. As I mentioned, because of the measures we took last year, we reduced the outstanding complaints that were beyond our service standard by 45%.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you for clarifying that.

I'd like to come back to the question I asked the minister earlier, which was the issue of resources. Madame Michaud touched on that as well, when she talked about interpretation support and official language support.

Looking at the information we received from the Merlo Davidson settlement agreement, we saw, in the terms of that settlement, there were over 3,086 claims filed between August 2017 and May 2018, and there was a roster of 29 external investigators. I'm interested in terms of the budget, because it seems inadequate to me, given the size and scope of the number of potential complaints, and the fact that we're talking about the CBSA and the RCMP. There is funding of $15 million rising to $19.4 million, when we include interpretation and other service components.

On what basis was there an evaluation of the budget that is required to handle this appropriately, ensuring we're meeting service standards and responding appropriately to complaints that come forward? How was that budget established?

[Randall Koops]

In developing the funding package that was sought for the legislative proposal, the department worked very closely with both agencies, and with the commission, in trying to predict what might be a likely workload, or caseload, that is brought to a commission. We modelled the current number of complaints that are brought about the RCMP, and we looked at the number—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

If you don't mind my interrupting, how many is that, on an annual basis?

[Randall Koops]

It's about 3,000 to 4,000.

[Alfredo Bangloy]

It's 2,500.

[Randall Koops]

It's 2,500.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

I'm sorry for interrupting.